Need Advice of a Good Tinkerer

[bigvarmnt]

Well, I got my 22-250 Handi rifle back from Brian a while back. H&R sent a return tag and Brian fixed it under warranty. I finally made the time to shoot it tonight. Seems to have the same problem. Release button very hard to push to open after the shot. Do you experts think it will loosen up with time? Should I just carry a small hammer? I may be up for tearing it apart as I wouldn't feel right putting it in the classifieds. I've never took one apart. If anyone knows what needs to be done I'd like to use it. It shows promise of accuracy. I shot this, more to test function and at only about 40 yds. Wasn't concentrating much after having a hard time opening it again. Load was 34 gr Varget/55 gr. N.B.T. Now I remember being told that the Win White box 45 gr factory loads were to hot for the H&R when I first had this problem last year but this Varget load is not HOT.
Thanks for any help.

[Ranger99]

no!
no don't hit it with a hammer
and no don't trade it.


try some dry graphite powder on it
or something

[Winter Hawk]

Assuming that it is one of the new ones with the window to see the latch engagement, I would go to the FAQs and search for Tim's little tool to remove said window.  You can then see what is going on with the latch up.

There aren't any scratches or burrs on the latch or latch plate, are there?  Do you have access to another Handi for comparisons?  I'm wondering if the latch sticks out further on this rifle, causing a bind. Another thought - could the latch button be bent and binding somehow?

Strange that H&R didn't fix the problem. 

Get yourself some punches as per Perklo's directions and take this puppy apart.  I know I was reluctant to do so for years, then got brave and, after doing it once it was a piece of cake.  These things are simple so it should be easy to determine what the problem is once it's apart. 

Good luck!
-Kees-

[quickdtoo]

I've lapped em with anything from valve grinding compound to tooth paste, but usually with flitz to smooth it up, just put it on and work the release, then open and close the action...a lot! Basically you're mating the parts, something that normally happens with time. This is assuming there's appropriate latch engagement, if there's excess engagement, it may need a longer latch to decrease the engagement. Be aware that hot loads  may cause a hard to press release button too. That's a start load, but a bullet other than the Speer they list, short COL or brass that has lower capacity can also cause problems, there's only 2.5gr difference between start and max loads of Varget for the Hodgdon 55gr data. I would think they would have noticed a problem when it was test fired at the factory, does it do it with factory ammo?

Tim

[Spanky]

It's pretty common with 22-250 Handi's. Read back through some old posts and you should find some chatter about it... I've had 3 of them and they all did the same thing. I tried Federal, Winchester and Remington ammo and it made no difference. It might get a little better with use but I doubt it. If it shoots well it shouldn't be much of an issue.
 
 
 
Spanky

[bigvarmnt]

Tim, the only factory ammo I have is the Win White box 45 gr HP. That is what I first shot in it and was told on here those factory carts were to hot for the H&Rs. I have several powders but since it does it all the time   It opens and closes just fine when empty but after I shoot it, it is very hard to press down. I'm hoping that the "NICE Gentleman" that sent the UPS slip and wrote the wrong thing in the problem area didn't get this rolling the wrong way. Argued with me for a while that they didn't have any Brian working there. I crossed out what he wrote and wrote in what it was doing. More to the story than feel like or need to go into. Don't know if Brian worked on it or not, there was little info when they sent it back. Did say it had been test fired but there was no empty in the gun so I assume they opened it. I have ten or more of these guns and this is the only one that is a problem. So guess I'm Lucky
Spanky, I had planned on staying away from this caliber in the H&R because of some of the things I read about them. Like the round but only have used it in bolt actions. It might shoot well but it doesn't work right. I don't think any of my other barrels fit this frame. Thought I tried that before, oh I do think I bought a frame since then. I'll try to get to that soon. Oh well, tired of beating this horse. May put it in with some re-rod when I do my sidewalk   Maybe barrel/frame will fit another barrel/frame. Thanks

[trotterlg]

What you have found is normal for a break action rifle.  The larger the case diameter and smaller the bore is, the more forward thrust there is on the barrel because of the area of the shoulder of the case.  The frame stretches a little allowing the latch to engage more, then the frame springs back so the latch release is very hard to push down.  I bet if you look across the face of the breach after firing a round you will see a gap at the top of the barrel and breach.  This is also normal.  You have what you are going to have with this combo.  A .243 is only slightly better in this respect.  Larry

[jeepmann1948]

How do the primer and back of case look? Any metal flow from the primers/shiny spots on case? Have you gave the action a good cleaning and lube yet? Any dirt/gunk under the extractor?
 My 22-250 not only shoots very well but opens up with normal pressure on the release with a just under max charge of 4064 and a 52 gr bullet.
 Good luck
George
 

[cwlongshot]

What you have found is normal for a break action rifle.  The larger the case diameter and smaller the bore is, the more forward thrust there is on the barrel because of the area of the shoulder of the case.  The frame stretches a little allowing the latch to engage more, then the frame springs back so the latch release is very hard to push down.  I bet if you look across the face of the breach after firing a round you will see a gap at the top of the barrel and breach.  This is also normal.  You have what you are going to have with this combo.  A .243 is only slightly better in this respect.  Larry

This is my belief as well.

Look at the latch, I'll bet you will find slight miss alighnment as well as rough surface on one or both.

If you have the "window" as Winter Hawk mentioned, pop it out and get a good light and see what you see. REMEMBERING the egagament you see will increase upon firing as Larry outlined.

Square the shelf to the latch, LIGHT polish on the shelf should have it slick as a ice cube in January.

If we where closer, I would happily do it for you! Its a easy fix. If you dissassemble, be sure to make up the slave pin first. You can sacrafice the shank of a correctly sized drill if you have nothing else. Its in the FAQ's as I'm sure you know. 

CW

[bigvarmnt]

Deja vu, sounds like I've been through this before. You all sound like you know what's going on here. I'm not a gunsmith and don't know one in my area. Probably wouldn't trust one with this anyway. I'm trying a new mechanic on my Jeep next week and can't wait to see how it turns out   The last four need more training I guess.
Rec. don't have the little window   It still does have a little gap ONLY after firing. Primer looks good. I have three Handis in 223 and think I'll just spend more time on them. Also one in 243 and 308 I've not even fired yet. Hope they work. This 22-250 has a nice trigger maybe the best of all   I have about all the calibers I want or I'd just get another barrel for it and forget the 250 as it sounds like it's unfit for Handis.
Makes me wonder if when the guy wrote up the order and said the reason for return was "opens after firing" they found out it didn't do that and thought it fixed itself   Maybe that was the closest code they had for this problem   Anyway Thanks to all for your help.

[quickdtoo]

I've not had the same problems with my 22-250 Ultra, it shoots handloaded 50gr Vmax under an inch, but others have had problems with factory ammo, usually Hornady. The only factory ammo I've used in it was the UMC green/white box which wasn't accurate at all, no hard release tho either. Here's a previous discussion on one problematic 22-250. FWIW, I'd recommend a little polishing on the latch parts to smooth it up, Ten Ring had the same problem with his wife's 22-250, solved by polishing with flitz.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,229990.msg1099280116.html#msg1099280116

[bigvarmnt]

Thanks Tim, I'll read through it later. I'm running short on time as I may start a new job next week. Wouldn't mind if they didn't need me for a couple more but don't want to loose it. Was working 12+ hour days at my old job and got behind at home.
I got the gun back a few weeks ago and finally took the time to load a few up to try it. Was feeling bad about not thanking Brian for his help after this long. Didn't need the gun right now as I don't have time to shoot it. I'll write Brian tonight when I figure out what to say. Don't want to seem ungrateful.
Came in for lunch and checked here. Got to get back out as rain is coming. Need to mow a couple acres but need to pull my brakes on Jeep in case I work next week.
Thanks, this will probably have to wait till Winter. If I don't put things back together soon after I take them a part, I forget where they go

[Airsporter]

The more experience I gain with Handi's, the more I relate to 'Pacific Rim' machine tools.  Seems they are more like 'kits to-be-çompleted' vs. fine machine tools.      

[dk17hmr]

Is the brass your are loading once fired in this rifle or fire in a differnt rifle?  If fired in a different rifle are you neck sizing the brass or full lenght sizing?

[bigvarmnt]

I full length sized the brass. It fits real nice and comes back out OK. Don't think I have any Brand new brass, will have to look. I don't want to buy new brass every time I shoot this though. Factory cartridges are probably new brass. If I get the time I'll pull a couple of those WWB factory rounds and deprime them and load them with some Trail Boss and see if that light of a load helps. Might as well just use my Hornet though. Thanks


I do have some Flitz. I like the "Kits-To-Be-Completed"  
I like to grab a gun and ammo and go shoot. It's Therapetic as Barney would say  

[sobeit]

I .had a problem with a TC-TCR...hard to open and actually bending extractors.  Call TC a few times with no success. Set rifle aside and started to think.  Called TC again....the service person couldn't help....I requested that he ask around....I could hear him holler out...Hey! TCR bending exractor ;a voice in the background said..."burnish the cases". It worked , polished chamber , burnish cases after reloading, no problems now..
Had similar problem with NEF 243.....hard to open..fired case would not eject.....polished chamber and burnish all reloads.....now easy open and will throw cases over my shoulder..cases must be totally clean and free of any lube .
 
 

[YRUpunting?]

I .had a problem with a TC-TCR...hard to open and actually bending extractors.  Call TC a few times with no success. Set rifle aside and started to think.  Called TC again....the service person couldn't help....I requested that he ask around....I could hear him holler out...Hey! TCR bending exractor ;a voice in the background said..."burnish the cases". It worked , polished chamber , burnish cases after reloading, no problems now..
Had similar problem with NEF 243.....hard to open..fired case would not eject.....polished chamber and burnish all reloads.....now easy open and will throw cases over my shoulder..cases must be totally clean and free of any lube .

So the solution is shiny pretty brass?

[sobeit]

in a word....yes......clean, dry cases and a polished chamber....It worked for me...............try it...you'll like it.

[gcrank1]

Wonder if the full length sizing is right on the ragged edge of too long if this is a tight chambered barrel. Can you adjust that size die down a bit more? Ive found a difference in the thickness of the shell holders from different companies; are you using the same brand as the dieset? One rifle I had to grind a shell holder special to get a few thou' more down adjustment to have all headspace right.
Note on reloading: the rifle tells us when a load is too hot, not just the manual. Since you tell us it chambers up fine why not back off the load 10% and if it works OK move it up incrementally until it gets tight again, then back off to OK. Function trumps a few more FPS of velo.

[bigvarmnt]

Before I sent it back to the factory I loaded some pretty light loads and it was not quite as hard to open but not what I would call enjoyable. I have maybe 10+ different powders and some Trail Boss and I will try a couple different loads but in 30+ years of reloading I've never tried to use close to hot loads. In fact I've went in the other direction the last 5 or so years and downloaded other carts. But I see no reason or benefit, to me anyway to download a 22-250.
I will try some different adjustments on the die and maybe buy a couple different boxes of factory ammo   but if it's going to be of no use to me, I'm not sure I need the grief. I have a 22-250 Rem 700 HB that shoots great, just wanted to try a lighter rifle. I've thought of putting a different barrel on the 700 which would probably be the smarter way to go. Handis are Handy but like any tool, if it doesn't work properly or get the job done it's pretty much useless.
I don't have a shell holder per say as I've loaded on my Dillon since about 1980 and use Redding dies so I'm hoping that is not the problem here. It never has been in the past and I don't think the Dillon is wore out.
I believe you may be on with it being a headspace problem. When I get some inside time I'll get my polish and some stronger glasses and some tools and get into this puppy. Or just shoot what works and enjoy it.
gcrank1, Hope you don't take this wrong but you've been thinking I am overloading and trying to get the most velocity out of this gun as possible from the start of this problem last year. I am not. I think by reading some of your posts over the last couple years, you do have more experience with guns and reloading than I. I mean no disrespect and appreciate your input. I generally re read everything several times and try to look at it in different ways and see if I missed something. This in mind it can almost only be a couple of different possibilities. I hope I figure it out as I like the gun.   

[gcrank1]

BV, no offense taken, and certainly none intended!
The 'trouble' with a written forum is that some of the nuance may be lost in trying to post with something (hopefully) useful and still be somewhat brief and to the point. Im sure that if we were sitting in your reloading room or down at the range we'd get along famously with a good give and take looking only to solve your problem. I admit I may err in making responses 'broad' enough that they make speak to someone reading about an issue who has far less experience than either of us so they may not have to re-invent the wheel. I'll try to do better.....
Sometimes a powder change can make the difference as the pressure curve is changed, as can not seating the bullet out to touch the lands so you have a bit of freebore in the launch.
Sure hope it starts to come around for you, I know that long term frustration is not what we are into this for. I had one rifle in 303 Brit that gave me fits for about a year before I conquered it (I just couldnt let it beat me  ), but I won  .

[bigvarmnt]

I think if it's solvable on my end it can't be too big a deal. I've just never took one apart and am a bit shy of it. I don't see as good now a days and I let some mechanical things beat me so to speak and I don't like it. I'd rather pay someone to fix it if I feel like I may have a problem. Problem is it seems hardly anyone can fix things like they used to. And then they act like it's my fault for bringing it to them. To clarify, I'm not talking about H&R. Just something I've found in the past several years. Anyway I do appreciate everyones help and let this sit for a while. I'll try some of the things mentioned and maybe it will just start working   Things HAVE fixed themselves for me before. REALLY!