blackened cases in 45 colt barrel

[lendar]

I have a 45 colt barrel for the Handi and am having trouble with blackened cases after they are fired.  It seems the chamber is over sized.  Is this normal for the Handi rifle?  This happens with light loads and full house loads.  Also I have tried most everything to remove the black from my brass but nothing works, any ideas on what will take it off?

[tacklebury]

If you do a search, you'll find that there are quite a few cases of oversize chambers in that caliber.  Unfortunately, it was a limited run and they are about gone.  H&R doesn't feel it's an issue, but as a reloader I was very disappointed by my first and second ones.  Luckily, I purchased through Davidson's, so their lifetime Guarantee saved me since H&R wouldn't.  I was using my LEE holding base (or you can use the 3-jaw chuck w/ drill base) and chucked them up in a drill and use some 000 steel wool touched lightly to the sides.  It's just cosmetic, but shines them up pretty good.  Some use brasso, but it's not recommended due to ammonia content.  It can cause premature brass failure due to brittleness.  If you want em shinier than the steel wool, you'll have to use some Jewler's rouge on a rag and spun against the case sides or Flitz.

[trotterlg]

A wet brillo soap pad will take it off.  Slightly faster powder will probably help and you may want to try a hotter primer.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

It's common in the Colt period, I just read an article on the problem in one of the shooting mags. In a BC Carbine use Ruger/TC loads, that's all I've ever used in mine, no soot. 

Tim

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGHP_en___US445&q=colt+sooty+cases

[Land_Owner]

Try soaking them for 5 - 10 minutes in a light lemon juice and water solution.  1/16 cup lemon juice to a gallon container.  should shine them inside and out.  If not shiny, don't worry about the color.  Load them up and shoot them again.  They are clean...

[45-70.gov]

its blowback  from low pressure
boost pressure if it bothers you.....that handi will take it


my 44 mags have no blackening
but the 44 russians and 44 specials do get blackened
in the same handis  and my revolvers..........no 45colt experience


i just don't pay the blackening any attention
so it doesn't bother me


all brass goes throught the tumbler any way  before re-use

[petemi]

Plus one on what Tim and 45-70.gov said.  T/C loads'll clean it up and all they'll need is a normal ride in walnut medium.  I've found that true with not only the straight walls, but also with necked cases.  Patty's light 115 gr. 7mm-08 plinking  loads crud up the case necks while my hot 140s do not.

Pete

[rdlange]

Same problem with light loads.  Went heavier as advised and the problem ceased as other said.

[quickdtoo]

I found the article on the 45 Colt, it's in the Feb/Mar Handloader magazine titled  "Battle of the 45 Colt Bulge" by Brian Pierce which isn't available online yet, so here's a portion of the article and another related discussion. Oversize chambers in the 45 Colt are common in the industry, not just an H&R issue, I suspect any tight chambers cut in BC Carbines were towards the end of reamer life when they cut the smallest chamber......unfortunately right before they discontinued them. 

Tim

 http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=41614.0

In 1985 I purchased a Winchester
Model 94AE .45 Colt
Trapper Carbine, which was a new
chambering for the 90-plus-yearold
designed levergun. A variety of
factory loads and handloads were
tried. It cycled reliably with every
reasonable load tried, including
Winchester 255-grain lead, Remington
250-grain lead and Federal
225-grain JHP-SWC bullets. I tried
common bullets of the period, including
the Speer 225-grain JHP,
the Hornady 250-grain JHP and
the Speer 260-grain JHP, as well as
cast bullets that included the 255-
grain Lyman/Keith (mould 454424)
and the 263-grain SSK bullet. Soon
thereafter NEI designed moulds that produced 310- and 325-grain
Keith-pattern bullets for heavy
frame .45 Colt revolvers, which
likewise fed reliably. I took advantage
of the strength of the action
and often used loads that generated
32,000 CUP.
Regardless of the load or bullet
combination, accuracy was generally
mediocre at best. Every aspect
of this rifle was carefully
scrutinized, the barrel and groove
diameter, crown, leade, headspace,
forearm, barrel band/barrel fit, etc.
The most likely accuracy-robbing
culprit seemed to be the chamber,
which was generously large and
even exceeded SAAMI maximum
dimensions. I discussed it at length with a contact at Winchester, and
it seems that the chamber dimensions
were intentionally large “to
assist in feeding.” Frankly, I didn’t
buy it!
A couple of years later, I was at
the Freedom Arms factory, whereinit had Winchester construct three
Model 94AE rifles on the beefier
Big Bore receiver. Barrels were
.45 caliber but installed without
a chamber. Freedom Arms
reamed the chamber to
.454 Casull with minimal
dimensions then proceeded
to test them. I had the op-portunity to spend an afternoon
firing several hundred rounds,
which fed and functioned without
a hitch. (This particular rifle had
to have the magazine tube and
forearm hardware beefed up to
withstand the continual beating
produced by the .454 Casull.)
 Cases fired in the Winchester
Model 94AE .45 Colt posed some
problems and challenges when
handloading. This is not limited to
the above-mentioned rifle, as over
the years I have owned four additional
94AE .45 Colt rifles, each
sharing the same problem to different
degrees. First, they left a
distinctive bulge on the case that
was just forward of the head.
Many carbide .45 Colt sizer dies
will not completely size the case,
leaving a portion of the bulge. If
these cases are fired in the same
gun, there is rarely a problem.

[RPRNY]

I too got sooty cases with lower pressure factory colt loads. This was not the case with 454 Casull or T/C, Ruger, +P handloads. I am not however getting significant or readily observable case bulge just above the head. But, there is definitely measurable expansion.

A question on reloading. I would prefer not to fully case resize. Is it safe (as in, will the die de-capper break) to extend the decapper to its full length (Hornady Carbide dies) so that it will effectively deprime and only really resize the neck? If not, what is another way to achieve the same result?

[lendar]

That is just what I did with the 45 colt, I "neck" sized the brass, but it didn't help anything.  I still got the black on the case even with full house loads.  To be honest the neck size was an attempt to  get my 45 colt handi rifle to shoot a group.  This is the only handi rifle I own that will not shoot a group.  I have tried everything, nothing works, it just will not shoot better than about 4 inches at 50 yds.  The only thing I have left to try is the ranch dog mold in 454.  So my question, has anyone tried this and how did it work?

[trotterlg]

Cases get soot on them because the bullet leaves the case before the case is sealed to the chamber.  To prevent it, faster powder, harder crimp, heavier bullet, hotter primer with a crimp or all of the above.  The brass will expand to whatever size chamber is in the rifle, chamber size likely has nothign to do with the soot on the cases.  Larry

[cwlongshot]

Cases get soot on them because the bullet leaves the case before the case is sealed to the chamber.  To prevent it, faster powder, harder crimp, heavier bullet, hotter primer with a crimp or all of the above.  The brass will expand to whatever size chamber is in the rifle, chamber size likely has nothign to do with the soot on the cases.  Larry

YUP... 

I have shot a 'few" big colts threw the years. I have at least a dozen so chambered firearms... Rifles, and hand guns, all will leave soot on lo pressure loadings. Especially lead "cowboy" loads.
I read your full house loads still do it. Not knowing your version of a full house load I cannot comment. But, there are heavy loads and then there are heavy loads. My personal heavy load, pushes a 300g bullet to almost 1300fps @ 15' form a vented hand gun barrel. This same loading is nearly 1900 from a rifle. Its a hammer on everything I have shot, Pigs, Whitetails and a Bear. Shot end to end thru a 120# Whitetail once. Broke the off side leg bone on that Bear too.

Listen to Larry, 45/70 & RPRNY and try his advice, I'll bet your problem is eliminated.

CW

[scratchmark]

go ahead and ream it it out to 454. you'd be surprised how much it will help the accuracy of the colt loads. There was a hard spot starting out which i believe is where the accuracy problem stems from, but once gone, my groups closed right up. plus ya have the option of two calibers at that point.

[Jimbo47]

go ahead and ream it it out to 454. you'd be surprised how much it will help the accuracy of the colt loads. There was a hard spot starting out which i believe is where the accuracy problem stems from, but once gone, my groups closed right up. plus ya have the option of two calibers at that point.

This^^^
 
It's exactly what I found with mine!

[Doublebass73]

Cases get soot on them because the bullet leaves the case before the case is sealed to the chamber.  To prevent it, faster powder, harder crimp, heavier bullet, hotter primer with a crimp or all of the above.  The brass will expand to whatever size chamber is in the rifle, chamber size likely has nothign to do with the soot on the cases.  Larry

YUP... 

I have shot a 'few" big colts threw the years. I have at least a dozen so chambered firearms... Rifles, and hand guns, all will leave soot on lo pressure loadings. Especially lead "cowboy" loads.
I read your full house loads still do it. Not knowing your version of a full house load I cannot comment. But, there are heavy loads and then there are heavy loads. My personal heavy load, pushes a 300g bullet to almost 1300fps @ 15' form a vented hand gun barrel. This same loading is nearly 1900 from a rifle. Its a hammer on everything I have shot, Pigs, Whitetails and a Bear. Shot end to end thru a 120# Whitetail once. Broke the off side leg bone on that Bear too.

Listen to Larry, 45/70 & RPRNY and try his advice, I'll bet your problem is eliminated.

CW

What powder type/bullet combo are you using for this load? You don't have to post the charge weights.

[cwlongshot]

Cases get soot on them because the bullet leaves the case before the case is sealed to the chamber.  To prevent it, faster powder, harder crimp, heavier bullet, hotter primer with a crimp or all of the above.  The brass will expand to whatever size chamber is in the rifle, chamber size likely has nothign to do with the soot on the cases.  Larry

YUP... 

I have shot a 'few" big colts threw the years. I have at least a dozen so chambered firearms... Rifles, and hand guns, all will leave soot on lo pressure loadings. Especially lead "cowboy" loads.
I read your full house loads still do it. Not knowing your version of a full house load I cannot comment. But, there are heavy loads and then there are heavy loads. My personal heavy load, pushes a 300g bullet to almost 1300fps @ 15' form a vented hand gun barrel. This same loading is nearly 1900 from a rifle. Its a hammer on everything I have shot, Pigs, Whitetails and a Bear. Shot end to end thru a 120# Whitetail once. Broke the off side leg bone on that Bear too.

Listen to Larry, 45/70 & RPRNY and try his advice, I'll bet your problem is eliminated.

CW

What powder type/bullet combo are you using for this load? You don't have to post the charge weights.

No problem DB,
 
 I have used the SPEER 300 PLATED SP for too many years to remember and I like it! Then came the 300 XTP and later still the MAG XTP. I never had a problem with the STD XTP at these ballistics. In the middle there I also tried the SIERRA 300 SP and the newer GOLD DOT 300SP by SPEER. The SIERRA is a conventional jacketed bullet and it too works well. Last game harvested was a 200# Boar, it smacked right in the noggin'... Bullet made it into the vitals and was lost in the gut pile. ALL these bullets work very well.

For powders, take your pic, H110/296, AA#9, LIL Gun, 2400, VV 110...

If I was picking one it would be the SPEER 300SP and WW296. 

CW

[Doublebass73]

Thanks CW, I have a couple boxes of the Sierra 300 grain JSP's that I'm going to start off with. I have Lil' Gun, 2400 and IMR-4227. I have used those Sierra bullets in the past with IMR-4227 and they were super accurate out of a 10" Contender.

I'll have to pick up a can of 296, that's the one powder I've never tried in anything. The data in most books shows that it consistently gets higher velocities than the other powders.