Author Topic: .357 max (Read 1109 times)

buckeyehunter2 · « **on:** October 16, 2011, 05:04:13 PM »

I was able to shoot my .357 max this weekend. I had a hard time braking the gun down to remove the spent shell each time. The .357 mags worked fine. Any suggestions as to what is causing this?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2011, 05:09:24 PM »

Did you ream it deep enough, all the way to the rim cut? Has the brass been trimmed? I always polish the chamber after reaming a chamber, it needs to be fairliy smooth, chamber polishing is covered in the FAQs. What's the load? Too hot a load can cause brass to stick.

Tim

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 16, 2011, 05:18:28 PM »

I reamed it all the way to the rim cut. I was shooting 20 grains of H110 with a 158 gr. bullet. The brass came right out when I pulled on it. The gun acted like it was stuck shut after each shot. I did not trim the cases since it was new brass. I will check the chamber polishing section in the FAQ's.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 16, 2011, 05:20:03 PM »

What primers? Small rifle are the rule to avoid issues.

Tim

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2011, 05:28:14 PM »

I used CCI Small rifle primers. When I reamed it the case you sent seated completely in the chamber. Had that case been trimmed? The polishing link on the FAQ page had an error so I couldn't read it.

tacklebury · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:09:02 PM »

I length trim all my new brass. I have had several sets that came in too long... mainly Remington Product brass. 8(

bikerbeans · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:39:41 PM »

buckeye,

After you fire the gun and it is hard to open recock the hammer and pull the trigger again on the spent cartridge and then try to open. If it opens easy then you probably have the primer flowing into the fire pin hole on the receiver. Doesn't sound like you have a hot load unless you have an extremely short OAL. Maybe too deep a rim cut? Prime a case and load an fire (no powder or bullet) and then check and see if the primer it sticking up from the face of the brass. You can also do a before and after length on the brass with your calipers to see if the primer is moving out. This will tell you if you have a headspace problem. Also make sure that everything is clean and your gun is locking up properly. Always possible during the reaming to get some dirt or swarf in the extractor or elsewhere that may be keeping the gun from closing completely.

good luck

BB

cwlongshot · « **Reply #7 on:** October 17, 2011, 01:06:55 PM »

Sorry to read of the problems...

I a couple questions.

1) What receiver are you using? I am thinking posibility of larger, shotgun firing pin or pin protrusion binding the action. How do the primers look, are they cratered at all?

CW

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2011, 06:34:12 PM »

CW.. My barrel was fitted on a SB1 frame. I shot the gun again today after trimming some brass to min. length. The gun was still a bit hard to hard after firing but not as bad as before. The primers on the fired cases look like a small rippled crater. If this is pin protrusion will it hurt to keep using it until after hunting season? is there something that I can to do to remedy it in the short term?

revbc · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2011, 07:26:02 PM »

Sounds like to much headspace. Been there, done that, on my 357. (cut the rim cut more when i reamed it) Mine rippled the primers a good bit and would still put 3 touching at 100. It should be ok as long as it doesn't develop misfires as mine did.

I never shot over the book max load when mine was on a sb1 receiver, and never had trouble opening the gun.

Post a pic of your primers.

Bobby

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2011, 12:33:56 AM »

Quote from: buckeyehunter2 on October 22, 2011, 06:34:12 PM

CW.. My barrel was fitted on a SB1 frame. I shot the gun again today after trimming some brass to min. length. The gun was still a bit hard to hard after firing but not as bad as before. The primers on the fired cases look like a small rippled crater. If this is pin protrusion will it hurt to keep using it until after hunting season? is there something that I can to do to remedy it in the short term?

I believe you have cratered primers. It occurs when the metal from the primer "flows" into the recesses of the primer hole and when this happens its difficult to open the action. It can be caused by too much pressure in your loadings OR a too large firing pin hole OR too "soft" a primer OR too much pin protrusion.

So its on a SB1, OK is it a rifle receiver? These are of more recent manufacture orig fitted with a rifle barrel (IE bought as complete gun)and got a small firing pin, or is it from a shotgun. Shotguns got a large firing pin (and generous pin hole) and this cratering is caused when firing a higher pressure caliber like the maxi from them. Head space issues generally will result in a "proud" primer, not a cratered one.

As Tim mentioned to you a couple posts back for the most part, as long as your watching for the pressure signs and your loads are within them, SMALL RIFLE primers correct this. I prefer Remington brand but CCI's also work fine. If you have a shotgun firing pin, its hit or miss if the SR primer will correct the issue. Lower pressure loading WITH the SR primer WILL likely be fine. The danger is if that primer gets pierced (By the gasses that are causing the cratering).

I too would like to see a picture to be sure as your terminology of "rippled" I have not herd before.

SO, My two new questions are:

What primers are you using?
Is that frame one that was orig bought as a shotgun?

CW

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2011, 02:26:47 AM »

CW. I am using CCI small rifle primers. The frame originally had a shotgun barrel on it (Maybe its an SB2?). When I said that the primers were cratered and rippled I meant that the area around the firepin strike was raised above the surface of the primer. When I run my finger over the primer area I can feel a ring on the outer edge of the crater. In spite of this issue the gun's accuracy with mag and maxi ammo is amazing! My kids love to shoot it.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** October 23, 2011, 03:34:12 AM »

Quote from: buckeyehunter2 on October 23, 2011, 02:26:47 AM

CW. I am using CCI small rifle primers. The frame originally had a shotgun barrel on it (Maybe its an SB2?). When I said that the primers were cratered and rippled I meant that the area around the firepin strike was raised above the surface of the primer. When I run my finger over the primer area I can feel a ring on the outer edge of the crater. In spite of this issue the gun's accuracy with mag and maxi ammo is amazing! My kids love to shoot it.

OK we have it figured then.. It is most likely a SB1 being it was orig a shotgun. You could try a mag primer but not sure if its thicker. Its hard to open because of this cratering.

Its happening as I said because the area around the firing pin is unsupported and allowing the primer to "flow" into the recesses of that pin hole. Lighter loadings may or may not help. Do you have Rem primers to try? I had a maxi barrel on a shotgun frame for a spell and did not experience this to the point it was difficult to open. Maybe they are a bit thicker.

Good luck,
CW

bikerbeans · « **Reply #13 on:** October 23, 2011, 03:42:25 AM »

What about trying CCI#41 primers (NATO SR primers for the 5.56mm) if the problem persists? I have never used these primers but they are for the M4/AR/M16s because of the free floating firing pin so I assume they are thicker/tougher to prevent slam fires in the autoloading black guns.

BB

cwlongshot · « **Reply #14 on:** October 23, 2011, 03:48:30 AM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on October 23, 2011, 03:42:25 AM

What about trying CCI#41 primers (NATO SR primers for the 5.56mm) if the problem persists? I have never used these primers but they are for the M4/AR/M16s because of the free floating firing pin so I assume they are thicker/tougher to prevent slam fires in the autoloading black guns.

BB

GOOD CALL!!

I always forget these primers exist, not really a blk gun shooter...

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2011, 05:03:17 AM »

CCI450, BR4 and Rem 7½ all have thicker cups than the others, likely more common than the #41.

Tim

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2011, 06:13:48 AM »

My guess is that when you do get it opened up the ring of the cratering shows a bright streak that has been shaved off in getting it open.
This is your clue that this load, in your gun, is too hot. Back the load off, it doesnt matter what the book says, only what your gun says. The harder primers mentioned will change this dynamic, but for now, back the load off to where it opens nicely. I will bet it still has plenty of beans and accuracy too, so no worries.

mechanic · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2011, 06:25:25 AM »

I'm using the Rem 7 1/2 primers with mine. I have this problem with CCI as well, even though I use them in most other guns.
Ben

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2011, 07:32:56 AM »

Great info. Thank you for choosing to share your wisdom.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2011, 10:12:18 AM »

Buckeye,
Here is two maxis I fired form two different guns same chambering..

The one on the right is form a SB1 shotgun receiver, the other a SB2 rifle receiver. BOTH are the same loading a 180 SSP and a near max load of AA1680 powder. This loading is about 2200 fps IIRC. The off center hit is another story entirely. I dont like it, but get 100% reliability so after fiddling with it for a couple weeks leave well enough alone...

I show it because it is possible to get the shotgun firing pin recievers to work.

CW

In your case I DO NOT feel it is over pressure.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2011, 12:41:40 PM »

CW,

I really like the dent your shotgun firing pin made in that primer.

Maybe you need to ream the primer pockets on some of you 357 Maxi brass and use 209s?

(just kidding folks, I don't think the head thickness of a 357 max brass would allow this alteration.)

BB

mechanic · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2011, 01:19:30 PM »

I have an old Huntsman frame that has a firing pin the size of a #2 lead pencil. You could use 20 mm. anti aircraft primers....

Ben

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2011, 04:55:35 PM »

I found a local shop that sold REM 7 1/2 primers today and.......after firing the gun was still hard to brake open. BB I took your advice. I recocked the gun and pulled the trigger and the gun broke open easily like it does for the mag loads. I believe that the gun opens a bit easier with the REM primers though. If I want to open it without refiring it I just use my knee as a break point to open the action. So any more advice?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2011, 04:58:02 AM »

Did you look for the smear of primer from the crater? If its there back the load off a bit until you dont get it anymore and the problem should go away.

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 05, 2011, 08:43:34 AM »

I took reduced maxi loads to range yesterday (18.5 grains of H110) and my barrel still stuck closed. I am officially stumped.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #25 on:** November 05, 2011, 08:49:29 AM »

Quote from: buckeyehunter2 on November 05, 2011, 08:43:34 AM

I took reduced maxi loads to range yesterday (18.5 grains of H110) and my barrel still stuck closed. I am officially stumped.

Buckeye,
Not to be harsh, but... Your not stumped, your trying to do something you cannot accomplish...
We have established you have a shotgun frame. Older shotgun frames had large firing pins. New SB1's use a small firing pin as the factory KNOWS this is a problem. The primer is flowing into the recess around that large pin. Different primers work SOMETIMES.
I would get yourself a SB2 frame or a newer SB1 with a small pin...

CW

buckeyehunter2 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 05, 2011, 02:24:48 PM »

CW. I guess I missed the info that putting this barrel on another frame (with a smaller firing pin) would guarantee that the problem is eliminated. Thanks for your patience and for sharing your wisdom.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #27 on:** November 06, 2011, 01:30:01 AM »

Buckeye,

I would take CW's advice and run with it. I have a 357 Maxi on the SB1 small f-pin frame (talo trapper) and I have shot 180 grain jacketed up to 21 grains of H110 using Federal Small Pistol Mag primers and have had zero primers issues. If you have to get another frame it would probably be easier to find an SB2 to fix your f-pin problem and then you could also workup up a hotter 357 Maxi load if you so desired. Good luck.

BB