Trail boss 45 70 loads

[mattt]

I made some 405 remington jfp loads with trail boss and they list the max at 13gn. Has anyone gone beyond that. I have a 4570 bc and the cup pressure at that load is around 26000. I would like to go to 14 or 16 gn to fill the case more.

[Spanky]

Why would you intentionally exceed a listed max load??
Don't do something that could get you hurt...  It's not worth it.
Be safe... CHRISTmas is coming!!



Spanky

[Blackhawker]

If you're just looking to fill the case, either use a different powder or use some polyester wads but by all means, don't go over the max listed data. 

[quickdtoo]

We've been down this road before, Trail Boss is for cast bullets only, IMR doesn't recommend it for jacketed bullets, that's why there's no data for it on the Hodgdon or IMR site, the 405 GR. LRNFP is a cast bullet. http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,147885.msg1098610371.html#msg1098610371

From the IMR site...

Trail Boss was designed specifically for low velocity lead bullets suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder but has some application in rifles. It is based on a whole new technology that allows very high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation, and, most importantly, additional safety to the handloader.

http://imrpowder.com/shotpist.html

[Ranger J]

Trail Boss is a great powder for use with cast bullets.  I load it for 300 gr Oregon Trail cast and it works well.  One of the ideas behind this powder is that is made bulky so that you can not double load it.   One of the reasons I went to Trail Boss is that it is bulky and fills more of the case.  With Re# 7 in trapdoor loads sometimes I got hang fires because it did not fill the case.  #7 works well for Marlin level loads.  Varget is also good for trapdoor loads. If you need more velocity with the 405 JSPs switch to something like 2400 or Re#7, both of which work well in the 45/70.

RJ 

[mattt]

Thanks for the input.If trail boss is used with jacked bullit does it create a pressure issue because there is more friction then lead bullits.Whith other powders the loads for jacked round vs lead for same powder are pretty close.

[billy_56081]

Trailboss is intended for light oads, if you want to load up your 45-70 there are plenty of powdres that will allow you to safley do that. And hey, they even have loading data for it so you don't have to make up your own loads.

[quickdtoo]

Dunno if this has anything to do with why TB isn't used for jacketed bullets, but the start pressure for jacketed bullets is 3625psi compared to 1160psi for lead bullets according to QuickLoad 3.4.

Tim

[mattt]

Yes I am very aware there are other loads for 4570 I own a couple reload books .The reason I am looking at using trail boss is I shoot my 4570 BC alot at the range. I was looking  for a jacketed load 405 grn that would fill enough of the case so no hang fires or double charges while reloading. I shot alot of factory 405 grn lead  rounds and starting to worry about leading thr barrel so that is wht I want to use jacketed.I tried varget with the 405 jacketed but still to much kick for me for shooting paper all afternoon. I had a couple pouns of trail boss from my 44 mag loads so I would look it. If I just wanted hunting loads Yes there are many out there but thats not what I use my 4570 for. thanks

[quickdtoo]

5744 should work great, I've used as little as 42gr in the 45-120 which is about a 40% load density and never had a hint of a hangfire or slow ignition using the 405gr Rem JSP, I've tried with the powder all the way to the front of the case and no problems, it's a little dirty shooting but doesn't affect accuracy. I'd use their 420 or 440gr CP data. They recommend LR mag primers for the 45-120, you might consider them if you have ignition issues.

 http://accuratepowder.com/data/Accurate%20v322%20web%20publication.pdf

SR4759 is also supposed to not be position sensitive, and leaves the bore cleaner if that bothers you, the  Lee 2nd lists it for 405gr jacketed bullets, 1390-1500fps. It lists a bunch of powders for use with that bullet, IMR3031, IMR4895, IMR4064, IMR4320, IMR4198, IMR4350, IMR4227 and IMR4831.

Tim

[BBF]

Contrary to Tim's post, I did not find SR 4759 to burn clean in my Handi.
I am using 27 gr of 2400 now with the 405 gr bullet, it is pleasant to shoot and doesn't leave a mess in the barrel.

[Lazermule]

I am doing well with VV N133.  It is a good one if you are looking to have a nearly full (or compressed on some loads) powder charge.  The recoil is low as well even on the max loads I have put together.

[mattt]

Just returned from the range.The trail boss loads just ran out of steam and werent doing well at a 100 and real bad at 200. 13 grains of trail boss just doesnt cut it for 405 grain.with the stock sights on my BC.I made up some more varget with the 405 JFps and they worked but more kick then I like. thanks for the advise I will try some of your powders.The trail boss was so slow I think I could have out ran it the 100target

[BBF]

Matt:
I tried TB with 405's myself and could have sworn I saw the bullet fly down range. It is a bit better with  300 or 350 gr, but not very much. TB is a plinker load and at close range at best. If you have a"kidlet" that needs to be introduced to big bores, this is the powder to use.
I have made up just a couple of loads with IMR 4198, recoil is light. I have not shot enough to see how it groups.

[ratdog]

i haven't shot trail boss with jacketed bullets just 405grn lee lead bullets 17grns of trail boss this is my sweet load for my h@r bc also my 22'' barrel to no signs of pressure nice easy recoil i have worked up this load for an antelope hunt it is accurate at 100 yards easy.i have loaded with pyrodex and 4895 with much more thump but i don't like getting hammered at my age. going to try some tb in my 45 rugers to see if i like them.

[Jimbo47]

17 grains, and not compressing with a 405 grain bullet?
What is the COL?
Curious as to where you are getting your load data since what I've seen is 15 grains is a full case with a 405 grain bullet.
http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm
 
 
 

[tom548]

I use IMR 4198 as it works in several of my rifle and ML. I also use a 300 gr. bullet and 42.5 gr IMR 4198. This is a very accurate load at 100 yards. 1" to 1.5"  off a rest. I am not sure if TB will kick the jacket bullets in the butt hard enough to give great results at any distance.

[gcrank1]

I throw 'short' charges and tap the base on the bench 5 times in between to settle it in, not unlike the BP guys do to maximize the load in modern solid head cases. (a modern 45-70 case will not hold 70grs of BP behind a 405 either, but the carbine load was only 55gr.)
I started with the 'book' loads and worked up (just like we are to do with any new powder, even new lots of a powder we have used for years). The idea of trying the 'settling' came to me while talking with an accomplished BP competitor.
My chrono'd full load goes about 1250fps and hits as well as I can, this with no overpressure signs. A friend with a British pressure gun has test in similar fashion for some BP express cartridges and found the same as I.
The Hodgdon site shows these lesser loads for vintage guns of weaker/or questionable metallurgy (now, after all these years metal does age). IIRC they are using a lower max pressure for the Springfield 1873 than the previous 28,000(?) top, but I may be mistaken. Please correct me if Im wrong, I dont want to be spreading misinformation.

[Ranch13]

IMR specifically says to not compress trailboss, as it's burn rate will be upset, and pressure tests by an ammunition manufacturer show that when using some of these "internet" loads of in the 45-70, pressures and velocity spike rather wildly. Not especially dangerous but not real good for a continuous beating either.
AA5744 is very even in pressure and velocity and in several chronograph tests with our rifles and match bullets, accuracy and velocity is very close to 70 gr charges of 2f blackpowder. Altho it seems for what ever reason the 5744 loads don't hold up with the accuracy at long distance as well as blackpowder loads.
4198 and 4895 in the 45-70 are very popular powders with folks that compete in the "buffalo" gong matches with targets to 1000 plus yds.