Recoil Computation Please: 6.5 Swede vs. 7m

[Big Paulie]

Does anyone have a recoil energy program, so that they can compute the following for me?

1.   Free recoil energy of the 6.5 Swede, with a 7.5 pound rifle, in standard factory load with 140 grain bullet (no light magnums please.)  Please use whatever velocity is shown in the factory ammo tables for 22 inch barrel.  Remington Core-Lock is fine.

2.    Free recoil energy of the 7mm-08, with a 7.5 pound rifle, in standard factory load with 140 grain bullet (no light magnums please.)  Please use whatever velocity is shown in the factory ammo tables for 22 inch barrel.  Remington Core-Lock is fine.

     I am considering getting a light weight rifle, but I am having trouble deciding between these two fine calibers.  I know that this is splitting hairs, but I thought that I ought to at least check the recoil numbers.

Thanks very much for any assistance.

Big Paulie

[Siskiyou]

You can go to the <beartoothbullets.com> and use their free recoil calculator.  The big unknow is what the factory powder charge wt. is for each round.  The weight of the powder charge is a key factor in determing the recoil foot pounds and the recoil velocity.

Depending on the powder charge it appears that the recoil of the 6.5 Swede is about 25% less then the 7mm-08 with the 140 grain bullets.  But the recoil is low with either round.  What does the 25% increase in recoil buy you.  A little flatter shooting, and a little more energy.

In a modern bolt action a reloader can cut that margin down safely. Factory 6.5 Swede ammunition is loaded for the weakest link in the food chain.  I should note that ammunition loaded at factory levels are very effective.

beartoothbullets.com

[Mikey]

Big Paulie - I didn't know that cartridge/rifle recoiled.  I always just shot mine until I was out of ammo....................  really.   Mikey.

[Graybeard]

You really are trying to split hairs too thin here. Using same weight bullets in same weight rifles you'll never know which you fire unless you look. If you were blind folded and handed the rifles to fire there is no way you'd have any clue which was which. Paper numbers are just that, numbers on paper. Your shoulder will never know the difference.

GB

[Big Paulie]

Well, er... , I guess I am a little bit recoil sensitive.  I only weigh 140 pounds.   Way back in 1977, I just had to have a new Remington 7 Mag, shooting 175 grain bullets, because everyone said it had fantastic power and only kicked "a little bit more" than a 30-06.  I had fired several 30-06 rifles from the bench and hunting before, without any problems.

    Well, you guessed it.  I sat down at that bench, hugged that beautiful new Remington 700 BDL in 7 Mag, and squeezed off that 175 grain factory load.  The scope did not hit me.  But, my head rocked back like a boxer had rabbit punched me.  And when the stars had cleared a little, I noticed a hard, sharp piece of metal floating around in my mouth, . . . and gagging me.  Of course, it was my beautiful $800 gold molar crown, with white porcelain facing.  

     Well, it cost me $85 to have that crown re-set, and it has never felt the same since.  (I call that shot my $85 - 7 Mag shot.)  I tried hunting and shooting with that rifle later on, but always felt myself tensing up really bad just before squeezing the trigger.

  I switched to a .308 Winchester, and have been happy ever since.  But, if I buy a lightweight rifle, I want to get it in a different (but effective caliber) with low recoil.  (The .243 is not an option for me.)

Thanks for all information.

Big Paulie

[Graybeard]

The 7-08 is what my wife uses. She is only 4' 11". We won't talk about how much she weights.  :-D

But if you are overly recoil sensitive and a reloader I'd say go with the .260 Rem. and load up Nosler PTs. I think they are available in either 125 or 129 grain weight. Should do fine on game and have a bit less recoil than the 7-08 using 140s and at the same time be more effective than any 7MM 120 grain bullet I'm aware of.

GB

[Big Paulie]

Thanks GB and everyone else for your input.  Since I don't re-load, I think I will go with the Swede.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

[Graybeard]

Thanks GB and everyone else for your input. Since I don't re-load, I think I will go with the Swede.

Would you please explain the logic that led you to that decision? What factory load or loads do you plan to use that you feel makes it a better choice than the .260 Rem. or 7-08? What rifle will you be getting?

GB

[Big Paulie]

Dear GB,

The decision for me is more of a process of elimination than a process of affirmative choice.   The key factors for me are:

1.  I am interested in gettng a lightweight rifle, primarily for deer, but with an occasional large varmint.

2.   I already have a .308 Winchester in a standard weight rifle, and the 7-08 round appears to be very close to it in utility and performance (probably an 85% or more overlap there).

3.   Although the 7-08 has less recoil than the 308. Winchester, when you put the 7-08 in a lightweight rifle that will weigh between a half pound and a full pound lighter than my standard weight rifle, the recoil may be the same as the .308 (or possible even a little more?).

4.   Originally, I really really liked the look of the .260 Remington, both on paper and from the writer reviews.  However, in objectively looking at it, I think that there is significant chance that in 5 years there will be no one making factory ammo for it.  (Except maybe Remington 140 grain core-locks).

5.   I know that handloading is great.  But I just don't have the mental make-up for it.  (I tried it several years ago.)  The main reason is that my work schedule and duties in life barely give me 2 or 3 free hours on Saturday and on Sunday, and I just don't find reloading to be relaxing  enough to spend the time (the hours) that are necessary to do it right.  Also, when you reload, you really really have to concentrate.  I find it extremely taxing.  So, since I won't be reloading, I have to rule out the .260 Remington.  (Unless, maybe, I just go out and buy a case of quality 140 and 120 grain factory loads, and hope I don't shoot them all up.?)

6.  The .257 Roberts is a nice round, but I have repeatedly heard that the factory ammo made for it is just not very accurate.  Most of the gunwriters say that you really have to be a handloader to have an accurate round.  Also, I am not seeing any lightweight rifles made in the Roberts.

7.   The 25-06 is very effective, but is ear shattering and I feel that it is over bore for my purposes.  Great for very very long antelope shots I am sure, but probably not a good general purpose.

8.   The .257 Weatherby round is way too expensive, and is a true magnum.   The 250 Savage is too weak, and too expensive.  

9.    My primary game is deer, with an occasional large varmint.  I shot the .243 Winchester for 5 years, and had the mixed results that you often hear about.  Yes, it will instantly kill a deer if you have a very good shot.  But sometimes, you only have a good shot, and I found it to be an unreliable deer round if you have to take a front or rear quartering shot, even if the deer is standing still just 75 yards away.   My "record" was 8 quick kills, and 2 definitely hit well (through or near the front shoulder), leaving no blood trail whatsoever and with the deer never found. (They both limped away!)    After the second loss, I couldn't keep using it.  In truth, I am probably not a good enough shot to use the .243 Winchester.  I have killed about 15 deer with the .308. All but two were one shot kills.  None were lost.  

10.   The 6mm Remington definitely packs more punch than the .243 (I was surprised by the charts), but I could find no gunwriters who were touting it as any better on deer than the .243.   (This is why the new .25 WSM is so utterly ridiculous.  It only duplicates a standard velocity 6 mm Remington!  It also looks like a bottle of white-out.)

11.  So GB, what is left for me?  The only round left in the general category, that it touted as a reliable killer, with lots of factory ammo, with low recoil, very accurate, lots of rifles to choose from, and different enough from the .308 Winchester to justify getting it, is the Swede.  All by default.

12.  I am looking into the Winchester Classic Featherweight.  However, I am concerned.  It seems to me that over the past several years, I have seen several messages on gun boards that have literally said that the new Classic Winchesters are riddled with all sorts of problems and are junk.    Any advice on this?

Best Regards,   Big Paulie

.

[huntsman]

The 6.5x55 Swedish mauser is a good choice for your described niche. Factory rounds are nearly all 140gr bullets, which are great for deer, or even up to elk at moderate ranges. The recoil on these factory loads, even in a 6# rifle, is quite tame. The effect of the bullets on game is more than satisfactory, enough to stop large hogs (200-300 lbs) in their tracks.

But this cartridge has much greater versatility than what the factory loads currently offer. It can be loaded down with 120 or 125 grain bullets to produce a round that is much more effective on deer than the .243 in any loading but has about equal recoil. It can be loaded with 100 gr, 95 gr, or 85gr bullets for an effective varmint round. There are reports that velocities over 2900 fps may not stabilize the lighter bullets well out of the military twist barrels. I can't speak for other barrel twist rates as I don't have one. The jury is still out on my military guns at these velocities as I am still working on loads. Even at 2700 - 2900 fps, though, the light bullets shoot flat enough for varmints.

Although I can't personally vouch for the 7mm-08, I am sure that it is a very effective round as well, and the bullet offerings are more diverse on the higher end than for the Swede (100 to 175 grains). From all that I have heard and read, it is relatively mild in the recoil department and very effective on game. Seems to me that it would work, but wouldn't do anything that your .308 can't already do for about the same recoil.

As far as rifles go, if I had it to do again I would go with the Tikka Whitetail Hunter.

[Big Paulie]

Thanks for your input GB.  I will take another look at the Tikka.  The removable magazine bothers me a little, though, because I loose everything!

    As for reloading,  I may just have to work up one good Swede load in the 100 grain category, crank out 500 rounds, and then put the reload stuff away forever.  

     Now for the real heresy.   After I buy my lightweight rifle with a 22 inch barrel, I am going to have it shortened by one inch, and have it target crowned with a recessed facing.  By taking just one inch off a barrel, you would be absolutely amazed how much the handier the entire rifle is, with virtually no loss in accuracy.  I know I am giving up 50 feet per second, but I will trade that any day for a very handy rifle.  (You would also be amazed how much better a 21 inch barrel points, compared to a 20 inch barrel on a carbine.)  If I were taller than 5 foot 8, I probably wouldn't do this, but I have found the 21 inch barrel a perfect fit for me.  (Also, I guess that since the Swede will probably come with a full length action, then the rifle will already be about a half inch longer, and a few ounces heavier, than the same rifle would be in a short action round like the 7-08.)

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

[Graybeard]

Big Paulie, sure wasn't me suggested any Tikka. I don't think you'll find any light weights in their line or Sako either. They are generally speaking a pound or more heavier than most according to specs I've seen.

The reason I ask for your rationale was that the ammo for the 6.5x55 really isn't all that common nor is the variety very good. As stated most is with 140s and that isn't going to kick any less than from the 7-08. Personally I'd not worry about the lack of ammo for the .260 Rem. but that's me and even if it went short I do reload.

If you use 140 grain bullets it really doesn't matter if the gun is chambered to .260 Rem., 6.5x55 or 7-08, you'll never know the difference in recoil assuming same weight and stock configuration. If you really want a nice light weight rifle the Remington Model 7 is the way to go. The SS with plastic stock models are really finely accurate and light weight with 20" barrels. I use the LSS Mtn. Rifle in 7-08. It is about 1/2 to 3/4 pound heavier than the Model 7 but I just like laminated stocks. While Remington does make the Model 7 with a Laminated stock I wasn't able to locate one and saw the LSS R700 sitting on the shelf and it went home with me.

Unless you locate ammo with the 120 to 129 grain bullets your 6.5x55 isn't going to kick any less than the others.

I know nothing from personal experience regarding the Winchester rifle. I'm a Remington guy and that's what I own. The LSS Mtn. Rifle from Remington will be as light as the Winchester but isn't available in 6.5x55 unless maybe from the Custom Shop. Now if you can afford it and want one sweet rifle the LSS Custom Model 7 is the way to go. I keep wanting to justify one to myself but just haven't figured out what I'd have it chambered to considering what I already have on hand.

Reloading isn't that difficult and unless you shoot a lot not that time consuming. It doesn't have to be all that expensive to get into either. For no more than you'll shoot it really isn't any current advantage but look at it as a possibility for the future should your chosen round not continue to be available over the counter. Things do change and later you might be in a better position to do it.

GB

[longwinters]

Big Paulie,  "looks like a bottle of whiteout" . . . .I LOVE IT!!!!

long

[AZ Dan]

BP,   You are going to have to decide which is more important, recoil or a lightweight rifle.  A 25-06 or 6.5 swede weighing around 7 pounds shouldn't be too hard on the shoulder.  If you plan on carrying your rifle alot than I suggest the 7-08 at around 6 to 6 1/2 pounds.

What's wrong with just using your 308?  

Good luck,  
Dan

[haroldclark]

I am recoil sensitive too and I am a large man, but I'm also, over my prime in life.  I shoot a lotttttttttt!!!  Recoil is a concern.

I have a little story, though.  A few years ago, I was shooting on the bench with a friend on the next bench.  We were working up loads in 25-06 to kill 500 meter steel critters.  My Ruger 77V was beginning to take its toll by the cumulative recoil syndrome.  Never heard of that?  Try shooting 100 rounds plus from a bench rest.

The short of this is that my friend, reverently referred to as The Little Short Italian, is a small guy.  He was shooting a European Colt/Sauer in 25-06 also and he couldn't understand why I was whimping out.

I looked at the two rifles side by side and noted that his stock butt was 1.5 to 2" lower than mine in drop from the plane of the rifle barrel.

I shot his rifle and what a difference.  My American designed straight stock was kicking the crap outta me.

I bought a CZ550 Luz in 7X57 Mauser for that reason.  It had a dropped stock, which also kept my cheek higher on the stock.  I used 175-grain bullets in it for 550-meter critters.

One fine day, another friend showed up with a CZ550 American in 6.5 X 55 Swede, one of my favorite cartridges in my Swedish Mauser Military rifle.  I couldn't wait to shoot that sleek little baby with the set trigger.  

That Swede with 140-grain bullets and a moderate load of powder kicked me worse than my 7 Mauser with a case full of powder.  The Swede in a Military configuration not only has about 1.5 pounds on the CZ550 scoped, but the recoil differences were very noticeable.

I had another occasion with the 6.5 Swede cartridges in a straight stocked sporter Sako and it tagged me more than I expected.

My point is:  Take a look at the CZ550 Luz rifle for less than 600 dollars that has the dropped stock and a set trigger.  The accuracy from the Hammer Forged barrel is delightful.

Harold Clark

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

    Thanks for all of the info.  I noticed a few comments on the board to the effect that it may be hard to find a light-weight rifle in the 6.5 Swede.  However, my research indicates that the new Tikka T-3 comes in 6.5 Swede, and I think it is only about 6.8 pounds!  It also has a 22 inch barrel.  This isn't a true lightweight, but pretty close.

Thanks again, Big Paulie.

P.S-the most accurate rifle I own is a Remington 700 ADL, in .308 winchester, from K-Mart, that I swear to god shoots 1 inch groups right out of the box with the 150 grain Remington Core-Locks.  Later, I bought an expensive H-S Precision synthetic stock, aluminim block pillar bedded, and dropped the action into it, expecting  some real tight action.  Instead, I got two inch groups!    Back to the wood.