hornady bullets

[rickyp]

hornady (.452) 45 cal. 240 gr XTP/mag bullets #45220
i Am using them in my 14 inch 209x50 contender barrel, but I was not getting good results on the deer that i have shot. I sent Hornady an email asking about the performance and this is what i got back from them
" You will need at least 1200 fps to open the bullet and about 800 foot pounds of energy with a starting velocity of 1700 fps."
So they are not a good bullet for my barrel. I am now Thinking that  I would have gotten better results using my cast 255 gr swc .

I would like to trade this 1/2 (50) box for at least fifty  45 cal H.P. Bullets in the 230-300 weight range. (I even have 50 sabots if needed to sweeten the deal some)

[KYODE]

what about the powerbelt bullets? ever try them? if i had a bp barrel, i think i would try them out.

[rickyp]

not yet, I still have something like 190 bulk sabots that i need to shoot up before i get new bullets. I do have a 50 cal. mold that shoots well out of my barrel but at 100 yards it  drops 2 feet.

[Ranger413]

I shot a 300gr XTP over 100gr Triple 7 out of my 209X50 Encore.  The buck I got dropped on the spot.  It was a quartering toward shot, in the right front shoulder and out the left ribcage.  Tremendous damage in the heart lung cavity.  I was really impressed.  I doubt that the 240gr XTP would have been any different.  Wonder why you aren't having better luck with 'em.  

Ranger413

[Redhawk1]

Rickyp, I had the same problem with the Hornady bullets, I switched over to the power belts and triple seven power and I am shoot 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups at 100 yards out of my Encore. I have 2 bags of sabots left and don't care to use them, just to use them up. I will end up giving them to one of my buddies that uses them. The other thing is I was able to use my Hornady bullets in my 44 MAG. But consider the power belts and triple seven.

[HoCoMDHunter]

When you say that you aren't getting good results, do you mean that the bullets don't seem to be opening?  
I used the regular 240 gr XTP and had the same impression.  I really can't complain about the performance though.  Less than MOA and none of the deer made it more than 50 yds.  The vitals looked like they had been in a blender.  These were with the 44 cal sabot, but I doubt that the 250 grain 45s would make much difference.

[rickyp]

I have shot several deer using a 14 inch 209x50 bullberry contender barrel 90
grs of pyrodex P and the 240 gr xtp mag bullets. every time it was close to the
same. I did recover #1 deer and it had a small entrance and a small exit and no
blood trail he was at about 5 yards from me when I shot him the shot was in the
shoulder where the the neck starts. deer #2 was at about 60 -70 yards she fell
in her tracks then about 2 minutes got up and ran away with out any signs of
blood. deer #3 another 60-60 yard shot (seconds after I shot #2) this one jumped
straight up and took off again no blood #4 was a 100 yard shot she jumped and
ran leaning to the side with no blood signs, deer #5 was another 100 yard shot
(about 20 minutes after I shot deer #4)this was a big doe she just ran a few
feet and looked around and then walked off. All shots where good side shots and
the only one that acted like I missed it compleatly was the last one.  this
track record is why I was asking about the xtp mag bullets I am thinking I need
to move down to one of hornadys 230 gr .451 hp bullets.  I don't think the 240
xtp mgs are going fast enough to expand and I am getting a pass trough with
little or no shock and expansion.

[curt]

I think your problem is that you are useing the XTP magnum bullet.
  It has a thicker jacket than the regular XTP hollow point bullet and it
  may be to thick to open up at the velocity you are getting from your
  muzzel loading pistol. I have used the standard XTP hollow point
  bullets in my 44 magnum for many years without any problems and
  have taken 2 deer this year with the 250 gr. 45 cal. XTP standard
  bullet this year, no problem with bullet performance. The info that  comes in the box of XTP bullets says that the standard 250 gr. 45 cal.
was designed for best performance at velocities of 800-1600 fps.
I don't think the results will be any different with a cast bullet, it won't
open up, just punch a 45 cal hole through the deer.

[Graybeard]

I dunno guys. Maybe I shouldn't but I'm gonna jump in on this one partly because I'm using exactly that bullet this year in my Ruger Bisley .45 Colt at maybe 1100 fps max. I'm sure expecting it to kill if I get the chance with it.

A jacketed bullet that doesn't expand as like a solid. A hard cast bullet basically IS a solid and they get more recommendations by knowledgeable handgunners than jacketed bullets do really even tho I personally prefer JHPs on deer.

The 240XTP Mag has a pretty good meplat on it even if it doesn't expand it should still perform much the same as a hard cast bullet will. Now I can't explain away all of the poor performance you mention but maybe can offer some insight on some of them.

deer #2 was at about 60 -70 yards she fell in her tracks then about 2 minutes got up and ran away with out any signs of blood.

Sounds like a classic case of putting the bullet in that pocket between the heart/lung cavity and the spine. Short shock to spine puts the deer down and then it gets up and leaves never to be seen again with little to no bleeding as there is no major organs or blood veins there. Deer so shot usually recover fully.

deer #3 another 60-60 yard shot (seconds after I shot #2) this one jumped straight up and took off again no blood

While we normally associate a deer jumping up like that as being one mortally wounded it ain't always so. Some times a missed deer will too from the close passage of bullet kinda scaring it a bit. Minus evidence of blood from the exit that the bullet would have left at the spot the deer is standing at and minus any blood on the trail the deer took leaving I'd say you just plain missed this one. It happens. Heck I even do it.  :-D

#4 was a 100 yard shot she jumped and ran leaning to the side with no blood signs

Dunno just what leaning to one side means exactly or why the deer would do that. Perhaps a leg hit? Don't leave a lot of blood but a good tracker should fine bone fragments and some meat at the site of the deer when hit. A blood trail from a leg hit maybe but likely not.

deer #5 was another 100 yard shot (about 20 minutes after I shot deer #4)this was a big doe she just ran a few feet and looked around and then walked off.

Definely sounds like a miss to me. Maybe not but sure seems like it.

So while I don't know if any of my scenarios are what really happened if I were a betting man (and I'm NOT) I'd put money on that being more likely than just poor performance of the bullet failing to leave a blood trail. How good are you at finding weak blood trails and staying on them? I'm horrible at it personally. I just can't see those small specks of blood very well and at times that's all ya get in the first 50 yards. Usually if you get a pass thru shot and exit hole you'll have a spray of blood and body parts that can be found directly behind where the deer was standing at the time you shot. Minus this and finding no blood trail I have to always assume the shot was either a miss or didn't exit. Entrance wounds don't bleed well and not quickly when they do. That's why I like exits always.

I know it's tough to loose one. I've lost some myself.  A couple I still can't understand were a five point long ago shot head on at 50 yards. Good blood and lots of meat at the spot the deer stood. Good blood trail about 50 yards and then I found none. Deer ran right at me along with the small buck running with him. Brush around my tree was so thick I could hear what I took to be the last labored breaths of a dying deer then nothing but couldn't see either deer. After a few minutes I started down the tree and heard a deer run off. I figure it the one with the one I shot. Well when I got down I found no deer and no blood trail leaving the spot where the deer ran to under my tree. I have no clue what happened.

Another was the ONLY deer I've shot with a .243. Deer was at 60-70 yards max. Walking slowly. I shot when it was still but it took a step just as the trigger broke. Last sight picture in the scope told me the bullet should have caught some liver and maybe back of lungs. That in my experience means a dead deer inside of 200 yards and usually less. I waited a little while then got down and went to where he was standing at the shot. No blood. No spray from an exit wound. NOT GOOD I think. But I saw him run away and took the path he did. I never found blood. I covered the area for over 300 yards in the direction he ran and never found one drop of blood or any sign to tell me which way he went from there. Loads of searching turned up nothing. A week later the folks I'd hunted with went back and followed the buzzards to him. He made it another quarter mile or so from where I'd given up on the nonexistent trail. I still don't know why or how he got that far. Since I didn't see the carcass and they didn't do an autopsy on the now rotting deer I don't know for sure where the bullet hit or if it exited.

Stuff happens. Those were with .30-06 180 grain RP Corelock and .243 100 grain Hornady Factory loads.

GB

[SPW]

I shot a deer last year with the plain XTP out of my 44 mag. one small spot of blood half the size of a dime and a little hair where he was standing. Through the lungs(middle not a high lung shot) he  went about 40 yards no blood trail and piled up in some bushes.

[rickyp]

The shots could have been a misses, But I doubt they all could have been. I am nowhere near the best handguner / hunter but I can shoot well. Most of my shots are not rushed and I make sure of what is behind and around the deer so I have time to Concentrate on making the shot.

I have seen many deer run leaning to the side of the impact. The thing that really gets me thinking about the bullet performance out of my barrel is the buck I shot last year. A Small hole going in, and a small hole going out with no blood. When I shot this deer he was only about 5 yards from me. When I field dressed him (does a deer need to be in a field to be field dressed?) I found a lot of bone the hard way (ouch) in the chest and not a drop of blood hide or any other signs of a hit. When he ran he did run leaning to the side where the bullet hit him. I was able to hear where he fell  and it was only about 100 paces from me

[Camel 23]

Yes, to properly field dress a deer it has to be in a field.  If you are hunting in the woods you need to drag it to a field. :lol:

My guess is that you aren't getting a complete pass through and exit holes (except the one you took at five yards).  Like GB said without an exit hole you won't find blood.  If the bullets were expanding you're going to need even more velocity/energy to get a complete pass through.

[BruceP]

I can't add anything about that bullet but I do know ALL exit holes from non expanding bullets do not leave a blood trail. I know no one said they all do but anyway here is the story of the only deer that I know I hit but still lost. It was the only deer I have shot with my C. Sharps 45/70 and the only deer I shot with a cast bullet. For those that care about such things the bullet is a Magnus 405 gr. flat point with aprox. .308 meplat and was started at 1300 fps. The shot was slight quartering away at about 75 yds. I tried to shoot through the lungs and break the far shoulder. At the shot the large doe jumped and kicked then did a 180 and ran back the way she came. I was only a few hundred yds. from the house and knew she was dead so I walked home to get some breakfast and call my cousin to help with the draging. After about 30 min. we went to find the blood trail but found no blood. We walk the trail she took still no blood. We split up, still nothing. After about an hour Chris had to leave and I went back to the point of the shot. I found where the bullet had entered the small dirt bank behind her  lined up with where I shot from and  finally found hair in the grass (it was Brown not White) but still no blood. Never found her that day but a week later I found her over 400 yds. from where she had been shot in the opposite direction from the way she had ran. The bullet had entered a little high and farther back than intended and missed the far shoulder but the exit was about two inches behind the far shoulder and half way up the body. It was warm weather and she did not smell the best so I did not autopsy best guess is that I got either the top rear of the near lung or top of the liver and the far lung. Even then she had to have circled the field I was watching then crossed the road, in all covering at least 600 yds.
BruceP

[J.Solo]

I have the standard .45 cal xtp's (not the mags) to trade if you still want to work something out. Send me a private "E" Mail if you are interested. - J.Solo

[Graybeard]

Sometimes wild animals show an absolutely amazing will to live and can travel distances we'd just not normally believe possible. I've seen it several times myself and heard of many others.

Ricky I still don't have a clean picture in my mind of what you mean when you say the deer run leaning to the side of the impact.  Some times my old thick head has a hard time wrapping around a concept. I seem to be having that problem this time. Are you meaning that the body "leans" to a side. That the side of impact is lower in relation to the ground than the other side? I honestly haven't ever seen anything I'd describe quite that way.

Now I've sure seen lots of real hard hit deer seem to be getting lower and lower as they move forward until they end up on the ground. This might be the same thing you are describing as leaning. If so for sure I've seen that. I guess if the hit is in the "shoulder" region that quarter might tend to be headed down the fastest on these but at the speed they usually move that's kinda hard for me to see except on film in slow motion.

I'm sure not saying my responses were what happened just tossing them out as maybe's. That's the dang problem with the ones that get away. Unless you can see them laying out reasonably soon after the shot ya really can't ever know for sure exactly what happened. I've sure had some get away from me I thought had to be hit but never found any proof of it. Often after looking hard enough I found proof it wasn't tho.  :oops:

GB

[daddywpb]

Toss the rest of those sabots in the garbage, and get yourself some Powerbelts. You'll be glad you did!

[rickyp]

GB. It is hard to describe the reaction I am talking about. Not all the deer I have seen shot act this way. Picture this a deer standing straight up and down now start to lay the deer over on it’s side so it is about a 70 degree angle from the ground. This is how the deer where running after shot.

I know we all miss and have done so my self more times then I care to admit. It is just hard for me to believe that I have missed all them deer when they acted like I made a good solid hit. I am almost 100% positive I did miss the last one and the only ones I can really say for sure that I did hit are the first one as he was in my freezer and the one that dropped in her tracks and then got up and ran away

[gunoil]

the xtp that i' shot is t.c mag express sabots with 80 grs of powder.. that 4 point had a exit the size of a half dollar . he ran about 50 yards  and they has a big pile of blood  thanks gunoil

[Graybeard]

OK Ricky that explains it to me just fine. It is just as you said it. I'd have say I've never seen what I'd say was that situation. Now if you take out or partially take out one front leg then the do kinda sorta more or less to some extent hold that corner lower a lot of times. That I have seen. I really think this might be the same situation you are seeing and we're just using slightly different adjectives to explain what it looks like to us. Dat's my story and I'm sticking to it.  

GB

[rickyp]

you could be correct about taking out the leg. As in another post I told everyone that I do hold just behind the front leg and aim for the line where the leg meats the body.And if I hit to far forward it will hid the “shoulder”

[msmith]

I like to try new things from time to time. Becuase of this I have used a small variety of projectiles to kill deer. Among them have been 30-06 jsp, 270 jsp & ballistic tips, 30-30 jsp, 50 cal round ball, 50 cal maxi ball and maxi hunters, 54 cal round ball, 54 cal maxi ball, 430 xtp, 452 xtp and 452 hard cast, numerous broadheads.

This is my observation. Deer that have been hit in the vitals, with anything, do not necessarily drop when hit. They often times do not even seem to have been hit and can go several yards before even leaving a drop of blood. I had one yesterday go close to 50 yards before she left any blood and very little of it at that. I almost lost her but kept trailing. I found her over 75 yards from where she was when I shot her. When I field dressed her, her heart was burger. It was a comlete pass through with a .430 240grain, xtp

Deer that are shot and the projectile has hit bone go down NOW. We're talking a spine, shoulder, or hip shot. With a hip shot, they will try to get back up, be prepared for a follow up.

Neck shots. The deer go down immediatly. They can get back up though if the spine has not been hit. I hit one there the other day with a .270 w/silvertips. Dropped like a rock, got up and went to the bottom of a hollow. Left a good blood trail though becuase the juglar was severed.

Sometimes when you shoot, the deer drop even with a complete miss. Graybeard mentioned this. Can't explain it, but it does happen.

Bottom line? I'm not sure. I do believe that shot placement is of the utmost and be prepared to track. Don't blow any shot off as a miss. A lot of my complete misses have ended up with meat in the freezer. Some of my sure hits have ended up with an empty field tag. I don't trust projectiles to expand anymore. A lot of times they just don't seem to work as advertised. I am leaning more and more towards a hard cast with max meplat.

[Bullseye]

I have heard others complain about the 250 mag bullets not expanding because of the thicker jacket they have for the 454 casull.  I use the 44 cal 240 gr XTP or the 250 gr. XTP Long Colt bullets for this reason.  I shot a deer last weekend with the 240 gr. 44 cal bullet.  From what I saw it had to be a bad hit, a little white hair and a plug of fat.  Deer did not drop any blood for 50 yds and then very little for the next 30 yds where it died.  That bullet left a hole going out about 3 times the size of the hole going in and it still just bleed internally and the heart and lungs were destroyed.  Shot one about 2 weeks ago that showed bullet expansion and very little blood, went about 50-70 yards.  I guess what I am saying is that just because a bullet expands does not mean that you will have a blood trail.  I do not worry about if the bullet is expanding, as long as the deer goes down within a 100 yards I am happy.  Now my slug gun, it always seems to leave a bloodtrail with that big hole!

[Jay HHI6818]

I shot a button buck last week with my 209X50 Enocre rifle using the Hornady 44 caliber 240 grain XTP behind two 50 grain 777 pellets. The shot was about 100 yards down a steep hill.  The bullet hit about 3 inches down from the top of the back on the left side. Entrance hole was about two inches in size and no exit hole. When I skinned the deer I found the bullet just under the hide on the right hind leg. PERFECT mushroom and it weighed 223 grs and expanded to .750 inches.

[rickyp]

sounds like  it did it's job very well. did the deer run or drop in it/s tracks?