22-250AI Fireforming

[PHATINJUN]

I know this should go to the reloading forum . But with it being a H&R and knowing a few of you have done some of this . I posted it here first. I have a 22-250AI that I am trying to fireform some cases with and am only getting about 50% good cases the rest are either blowing out the shoulder or splitting the mouth. The ones that are good are perfect . What's going on? The cases that I am fireforming are brand new handloads that are sammi spec. .The cases eject fine. Maybe to hot?? Looking for anwsers. Brass is to expensive to throw 1/2 out.Kurt

[Goatwhiskers]

Are you using factory ammo or handloads for your fireforming?  My opinion is that your loads are way too hot to reform the brass.  I don't have my info in front of me but using a light charge of pistol powder, a filler of corn meal or cream of wheat, and a wax plug made by poking the case into a block of household wax will form the brass correctly, then you can load with no problems.  I know that theoretically you can fire factory ammo in the improved chamber, and basically you can, at least with lower pressure cartridges, but forming them ahead of time works a lot better in my limited experience.  Here endeth the lesson.  Goatwhiskers the Elder

[knight0334]

I'm assuming this to be a .22-250 Handi type gun, which if you rechambered to an Ackely Improved - you will be lacking the .003" crush fit which helps with the forming of the shoulder.  Without that crush fit, you will often have blown out cases when fireforming or firing the parent cartridge in the Improved chamber.

If you did a complete cleanup of a smaller cartridge chamber to the .22-250, you might need to anneal the brass a little further down.

[Darreld Walton]

My .22-250 Ackley is built on an 03 Springfield, not a Handi.
I'd have to ask, too, what brand brass and what rifle action?  I've had best results with WW brass. 
I usually run the brass over a .243 expander ball, then resize the neck and shoulder till the bolt will just close with resistance.
Sounds like what is happening to you is that the pressure is expanding the neck, getting a good seal, and the chamber is grabbing that portion of the case, but the rest of the case has too much room to push rearward, and you're getting case failure.
Do NOT use reduced loads to fireform this round!  Use at least a 55 gr. bullet, with 'normal' .22-250 Remington data, and a powder with a burn rate similar to 4895 or 4064.  Nosler recommends seating the bullet into the lands to hold the case against the bolt face, but I prefer my method.

[PHATINJUN]

OK so this is my take on a AI and what has been said about it concerning H&R. And remember I am not even a bad gunsmith The reason you can't do it right is because you can not set the bbl back which gives you this .003 push with the bolt? Correct? I was told that it is a True AI and I took it to mean that somehow this was acheived with machining but now that i read back thru what he was probly saying was that with the 40* shoulder it was a true AI does that make sense?? I will have to look at what I loaded these with for powder but they are 40gr and I had not started to move the bullet towords the rifling yet for accuracy and had not done a chamber cast of the other 22-250 that I had loaded them for. So if I got to pull the bullets and start over where do I start? They are new brass and I thought they were winchester but might be Remington I will have to take a look when I get off work tonight. thanks for bearing with me and the help. Kurt

[quickdtoo]

Kurt, what chamber was in the barrel before the rechamber?

Tim

[jeepmann1948]

Sounds like a chamber cast may be in order to obtain an accurate idea of chamber dimn.
Darrel has the right idea of using a "false shoulder" for fireforming in a Handi Chamber. Anealing the brass will help a bunch in the fireforming process.It is a lot more work to get the cases formed but case life is a lot better with the ACK version
Good Luck
George

[Darreld Walton]

As with most gun-related myths, stories, and legends, your friend/seller may have one mixed up and applied to your rifle.
Ackley generally used a 40 degree shoulder, on most of his 'improved' rounds.
He developed the .257 Roberts AI, and apparently, later on, RCBS put an "Improved" Roberts out with the original shoulder angle provided by the .257 Roberts case.  Could be that someone has the rounds mixed up, to make that statement.
That having been said, it may very well be that the chambering job was not done well, or with a poor reamer.  I'd have that one checked out and as mentioned, probably need a chamber cast to see just exactly what you've got.
You might get a pretty good idea of the dimensions of your chamber by looking at a 'successfully' formed case.  Take one of those, and one of your loads in your pocket when you have it checked out, and let the 'smith look at 'em.

[alan in ga]

Best to use NEW brass or factory loads [which is also new brass]. Even one firing and then handloading will harden the case shoulder which will then tend to be more apt to split on fireforming to AI.
Handloads can be used but usually need the cases annealed first.
Full power 'standard' cartridge loads are what works. It might seem 'backwards' but a lower powered load will split the shoulder MORE OFTEN than a 'full load'.
Some lots of brass are more brittle even when new and unfired. If you know how to anneal fired cases than that has always worked for me.
If you have a Handi Rifle and someone has run an Ackley Improved reamer into what was ALREADY a 22-250 chamber, it will have excess headspace since the barrel has most likely not been set back for tighter[correct] headspace. It's POSSIBLE that someone broke the barrel lug weld and rewelded the barrel back with 0.004" or so less headspace, but highly UNlikely!
You CAN still shoot it but you MUST fireform cases with techniques that correctly make cases that are not stretched at the web.
If it started out as a smaller chamber [.22 hornet as a poster said] 22 barrel, it is possible that you have a correctly headspaced chamber. A standard 22-250 'GO' gauge should not fit [action close easily] in the chamber if it's a correct chamber for 'the' 22-250 Ackley Improved.

Rimless Ackley Improved rounds  are chambered TIGHT because the only contact point is a skinny band of brass at the junction of the neck and shoulder when first fireformed, not the whole shoulder as in standard rounds.

[bikerbeans]

Kurt,

My apologies for a thread hijack but am get ready to ream a 30-06 AI and have a question.  If you ream the Handi barrel to leave a standard case just slightly "proud" to the chamber face could  you not use a little force in closing the action to achieve what is done with the barrel set back on a bolt gun?  I know this can be done with a 22-250 because I reloaded a few rounds without a proper resizing and they were slightly long but my kid got the gun to close and shot a few like this before telling me.  I understand doing this might lead to underlug pivot issues.

BB

[alan in ga]

If you start out with a 30/06 barrel, it won't be possible to do this. It is already reamed past the 'crush' point and will be too deep at the neck shoulder junction point already.
If you start out with a 30/30 barrel it could be done. A .308 Win is a bit too large in diameter I believe [compare chamber spec sheets]
As far as stress and/or wear on the lug, I wouldn't guess...could be! Minor 'crush' might be ok but I'd let H&R determine that, and they most likey won't want to give any judgment on a 'custom' gunsmithed barrel. Too much liability wrapped up in that.

[gcrank1]

Do I remember correctly that in fire-forming bottleneck cartridges it is not recommended to use a filler, like CoW, etc. because case necks have been known to be occassionally blown off and stuck in the chamber?

[quickdtoo]

This has been in the FAQs for a few years. The Nosler manual states to use their start loads for the parent cartridge to fire form.

Tim

Handloading for an Improved Chambered Handi

[PHATINJUN]

Tim this was a new .223 fluted ultra bbl rechambered for 22-250AI. Do you think that if the bullet is not seated out far enough as these seem to be seated quite a bit short. I think I am just going to pull these 40gr bullets as they can't be seated out any farther anyway. Do a chamber cast. These are new R-P brass and the cases that came with the gun are winchester. Looking at the ones that did not blow out the shoulders it appers they may in fact not even have blown out far enough in the chamber to even finish the shoulder angle as it has a little bit of a radius to it where the winchesters are sharp angles. Does that make sense? I will have to try and find the Nosler info. Kurt

[quickdtoo]

This is Larry's trick, prime an empty case, chamber and fire it, check the resulting headspace as shown by how much the primer is above the face of the cartridge. If it's too much, SAAMI max is .006", use the false shoulder trick on new or once fired brass to reduce that to zero or as close as you can, then load em up and head to the range.   It's possible the smith cut the chamber just a tad too deep which defeats the purpose of rechambering a smaller chambering to an Ackley.

The other alternative is to reduce the chamber face, I use a file per the FAQs until it's flush with chambered brass, then refit the barrel with a shim, this is how I did my 270Ackley fluted  Ultra, the chamber face was buggered, so I cleaned it up which made the chamber too shallow, rather than renting a 270 Win reamer, I rented a 270 Win Ackley Improved reamer and rechambered it by hand, it shoots factory ammo fine, they come out perfectly formed. The hand reamed chamber is just .002" out of round which was a concern of doing it by hand.

Tim

[mitchell]

hey PHATINJUN  who did the rechamber?? i did one a while back on a 223 fluted and it worked well. i just fired winchester white box in it and they turned out just fine. you may want to do a chamber cast and see if it was cut too deep. i think you might have a little too much head space. also make sure you check your reloading die you might be bumping them back a little too far. good luck buddy

[PHATINJUN]

Thanks Mitch .I do not know who did it I bought it from a member here . But was told it was done correctly. He had shot it and the cases I got from him are fine and fireformed well. I truley suspect my handloads and am going to pull all the 40gr bullets that are seated to deep that they do not give any support with the bullet. I am going to do a cast anyway but am pretty confident the chamber was done correctly. He stressed that point before the sale. I knew you had done one but thought it was a 220 Swift. Do you still have the bbl? Did you ever get Veloscity Junky speed with heavy bullets out of it. Are you back in the sand pit or state side now? Kurt

[alan in ga]

Take a new factory round and feel how it chambers (any 'feel'? Then put a piece of tape on the face of the case and see if there is any 'feel'. It will give you an idea of how factory ammo headspaces which isa what counts.

[dk17hmr]

If this is the barrel I had I bought it from Mitchell, it sounds like it is, I used Winchester White Box ammo for fireforming, if you have the brass I fire formed and prep it should be trimmed, neck turned and flash hole deburred.  I had zero problems fireforming with WWB.  If you insist on using handloads for fireforming you should probably have a false shoulder, neck 22-250 brass up to 243 than neck it down forming a small shoulder to help with head spacing......WWB is pretty cheap though.

That barrel seemed to shoot pretty well with WWB I made several hits on my 800 yard gong with it.

It is a TRUE AI.

[PHATINJUN]

Thanks I will be pulling the bullets and trying the .243 thing. I don't see me buying any WWB as I got 500 new brass loaded already from my other 22-250 that i never got to shoot last yr. I did not have your pm's saved but was pretty sure the chamber was right. Kurt