sub-sonic .223 load development----results !!!

[gendoc]

but of course using trailboss  
hodgdon lists a load using 4grs with a 55gr fmj....@1074fps
we will be in tha test cell this weekend to find the best performance within sub-sonic speeds
and recording piezo pressures, which will be at a very minimum. suitable for use with a sb1 receiver.
but not recomended because someone might slip a full strength load in it   and thats notta gud thang !!
why are you doing this?,   you ask...... cause we can  
our prototype handi is a 17" standard contour 1:9 barrel with a vxII luepold 2-7x32

also we will be testing reduced loads with various handgun powders.
we started this project 9 months ago but my son was called back to afgan.
its been on the back burner ever since. he's back now and rare'n ta go !!!
13 years as a marine corp. armorer.... he knows what he is doing

we got some tests for the #1's too, but thats a different forum

[myarmor]

Surprisingly, downloading the 223 is a lot of fun. I have done several using BlueDot with good results. From 22LR-223levels, BlueDot worked great... of couse not the extreme velocities you can get out of a 223 with other better suited powders , but still respectful.
have fun boys, and let us know of what worked best in yours.




-Aaron

[gendoc]

aaron, on paper calculations and pc data, imr-4227 shows to be a good prospect.
but until the hydraulic arm proves it....we don't know  ... i'm sure others have tried
but no one has spoke up on the web that i can find.
thanks

[Dinny]

I've done some reduced loading for my .223 recently using TB. I'll look at the logbook this evening and let you know what I have written down.

Thanks, Dinny

[myarmor]

Still looking for my loads, a member here PM'd me some excellent info and I saved it but then my PC crapped out so I lost a lot of info  ...More to come I hope...

[PowPow]

I used IMR SR-4759 for reduced loads in my handi and #1.
They put 16 oz in a 1 lb can. (TB is only 10).

Used it to slow down a 40 grain in my handi 223 1:9 to see if it improved accuracy. It did. Did not try subsonic 223.
Also used it for same speed, lighter bullet, less kick in a #1 30-06, and for subsonic in my handi 30-30.
Can't say I ever went piezo though.

[MSP Ret]

very interesting guys, thanks for the effort and keep the good info coming. And Gendoc, happy to hear your son is back safely (again!!). Tell thanks for his service and sacrifices....<><....

[Big G]

Might check this out!      http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4297903/Requested_223_and_Blue_Dot_Ful#Post4297903

[PA-Joe]

Go to  jamescalhoon dot com

He has gopher loads using 800x and bluedot

[gendoc]

andy, this is J2. you and all are most welcome. we are proud to provide the service for this
great country and well being. thank you sir, for your support from the heart.
and dinny, we are as one my brother. thank you for your strike support. in god we trust.

SEMPER FIDELIS

[Dinny]

andy, this is J2. you and all are most welcome. we are proud to provide the service for this
great country and well being. thank you sir, for your support from the heart.
and dinny, we are as one my brother. thank you for your strike support. in god we trust.

SEMPER FIDELIS

Strike and Kill!  Hooah!!


I have found that with 45-55gr bullets and 4-6gr of TB, I got my best accuracy. Velocities were only 1250-1450fps though.

Thanks, Dinny

[Sourdough]

I am downloading the 30-06, havn't tried the .223 yet.  People ask WHY?  I use a suppressor, and with subsonic loads, no one knows when I shoot a stray dog, cat, fox, or other varmits.  (If it's on my five acres it's a stray)  With the 06 they don't get up and head for other places either.

Thinking of getting another suppressor for my .223, then I will need to develop a sub sonic load for it as well.

I do like Trail Boss for it's ease of loading, in both pistols and rifles.  But I do get an awful lot of unburned powder left in the barrel. 

[wreckhog]

I just use a 12 gauge for the cats. Eliminates having to pick them up. The crows finish whatever is left and by the time my kid finds them, they are a wet spot. I just got an above ground pool and that will pretty much kill my shotgunning in the yard. The wife's reaction to richocets in the liner would be nasty.

[Dinny]

I am downloading the 30-06, havn't tried the .223 yet.  People ask WHY?  I use a suppressor, and with subsonic loads, no one knows when I shoot a stray dog, cat, fox, or other varmits.  (If it's on my five acres it's a stray)  With the 06 they don't get up and head for other places either.
Thinking of getting another suppressor for my .223, then I will need to develop a sub sonic load for it as well.
I do like Trail Boss for it's ease of loading, in both pistols and rifles.  But I do get an awful lot of unburned powder left in the barrel.  

Sourdough,
  I, too, have been downloading the 30-06 using TB powder and 220gr bullets. PM me sometime so we can compare notes.

Thanks, Dinny

[rhbrink]

Gendoc first off congrads on getting your son back safely and thank him and everyone else in the military for the great job that they are doing!

I have been shooting a lot of reduced loads over the years in all kinds of stuff from a 22 Hornet to a 45-90. Lately have been playing with a 223 so was glad to see this thread. One thing I have noticed over the years is that the light loads often print much lower than the normal hot load. While I was sighting in my .223 with the Burris Balistic Plex I noticed that the distance between the cross hairs would change with the power setting. So I sighted in at 100 yards with my hot load at 9X then moved to 25 yards and shot my squirrel load noting that the group shot several inches low. Holding the rifle very steady on a solid benchrest and keeping the center cross hair on the exact center of my aiming point I slowly turned the power down until one of the lower crosshairs centered up on the squirrel load group. Make note of the power setting and you can return back to this at any time you desire. In my case its at 4 power and the 3rd crosshair is dead on my light load. This should work just as well on a Mil-Dot, hope I didn't confuse a bunch of people but it works for me.

[gendoc]

here are the results of our sub-sonic load development. we have had the most fun and great time
since the last time we did simular tests.

the weather was not really bad.... lotta rain and some southeast wind gusts to 15-20 knots
it was cool !!! 86 yesterday afternoon and 82 this morning 
we waited till the wind laid down both times before shoot'n.

we shot over 250 rounds of different loads, but i will only show the trailboss loads
because i don't recommend the others to anyone without proper test facilities.

the trailboss loads started at 4gr and went to 6gr.
maximum pressures did not exceed 13000psi, mostly were around 10900-11200.

my son removed the 2-7 leupold scope because he wanted mil-dot reticle (i wonder why?)

we did change the receiver to sb2 when trying pistol powders because of non-exsisting data and higher
possible pressures.
all the pistol powder results were good but not like the trailboss.

6 different pistol powders were tried and they performed excellent above sub-sonic speeds.

here are some targets, i hope you can make out the writing. if not i'll try to take a better picture
these are trailboss loads only.  we did a 95yrd shoot just for the fun of it !!! bottom right
you can tell spread and control change versus the 50yrd. the 6gr loads were right on the sonic border
some cracked and some did'nt.  we had a lil wind during these tests.


this is the shoot'n iron 
last night my son had this receiver and a sb2 tore down performing his magic.
and he liked my crown job, so he did'nt touch that !!! and he would not touch my #1's
because he knows they were precision built by us years ago.


no, that is not a tamer receiver......look closely at the next picture.

fred, you gunna like this!!!!  and everybody that has the HANDY GUN II..... (NOT HANDI) 1984 vintage
i know she's strong because with brenneke ko's its pressure is 19000 and 357 max its pressure is 37600
the way i load it.


we're still have'n fun !!!

 and thanks for look'n 


 

[fredster22]

 Nice work John & J2 have seen you guys beat Mother Nature an got-er done. Interesting read as I have
thought about the same. Of course all I have is aggressive varmints but who knows? Was All of your work
done with 55gr fmj's? Have an excess of 52gr Hp match. Have you guys done(knowing your liking for the
762-39 John) any work on the 762-39 round for sub velocitys? Thanks for posting and letting me know on the
use of the 258 receiver. I love mine and did work on the top one. Fred

[dave29]

That is one sweet looking "Handy" you got there. I am very jealous of that receiver. I really like that set-up with the Tamer buttstock and 17" barrel. I may try to do one just like it, but without a Nickel Handy receiver, because I know I will never find one.

[gendoc]

fred, we used up alot of fmj's.   for the targets posted, we were using hornady 55gr spsx
they seemed to like sub-speeds and trailboss better.

a while back we played with sub-sonic 39. used a 200 grain sierra bullet.  can't remember what flavor
or powder type and charge......i will look it up.
i do remember that it was a blast to shoot and purdy dang accurate too.

your hgII's are very nice.... when ya gunna get that other mag barrel fer it ??

[gendoc]

thanks dave, if ya find one....just remember its simular to an sb1.
gunbroker has them every now and then but usually with just the 20ga barrel.
keep look'n you will find one. maybe a complete set

[Rustyinfla]

  I've been thinking of doing the same thing with the sub sonic loads, but I was thinking of trying some of the 62 grain and up bullets. did y'all try any work with the heavy stuff?

[montveil]

Help me understand the need for a 223 subsonic load or is it just fun to develop one.
Wouldn't a 22 lr 60 grain load be about the same    #
Aguila SSS Sniper Subsonic Ammunition 22 Long Rifle 60 Grain Lead Round Nose Box of 50

[gcrank1]

The 60gr.SSS is too long for the std 22LR twist to stabilize past about 50yd., at least in any of my guns. For up to that Ive had respectable groups and they will drive deep. After that they keyhole and start to pattern rather than group.
I had played with the idea of getting a faster twist, even 1:12 .223 and using a chamber insert to 22LR and trying them. By Greenhill the 1:9 might be the more optimum twist. If I didnt have to get a new rifle I probably would have done this as the insert is not badly priced. On another forum I bounced this idea and another chap said he had chrono'ed some SSS and they were all over the chart, so he didnt think they had the consistency to be worth the expense and effort, but without trying it, who knows. Maybe he had a bad lot. I havent noticed a real change in report, etc., or duds in the several boxes Ive messed with.
Hey, If any of you guys have the .223 and an insert, how about trying some of the SSS and letting us know?

[Dinny]

Help me understand the need for a 223 subsonic load or is it just fun to develop one.
Wouldn't a 22 lr 60 grain load be about the same    #
Aguila SSS Sniper Subsonic Ammunition 22 Long Rifle 60 Grain Lead Round Nose Box of 50

There's a few reasons that I can think of right now.

#1 Flexibility- Use the same rifle for many things. I've loaded the .223 all the way down to 800fps, could go all the way up to 3500fps.

#2 Familiarization- Using the same rifle more often than not allows the rifleman to develop a better feel for that particular rifle, "The man that has but one rifle generally knows how to use it."  

#3 Bullets- I don't know of a better variety of bullets than .224"(Oh well.....maybe .308" ) and most of them are more efficient than most bullets commonly used in the .22lr.  That efficiency makes for some "that shouldn't be doing as good as it is" moments.

#4 The Aguila SSS is finicky! As mentioned earlier, their weight/length makes them unstable for most 1-16" twisted .22lr barrels. Needs to be closer to 1-9".

#5  It's fun! enuff said...

Thanks, Dinny

[myarmor]

...I echo Dinny's remarks, plus 1!....Just why not it's a lot of fun an fill's many a gap in performance from 22lr,22Mag, 22Hornet, and full Spec 223 loads

[rhbrink]

+1 on Dinny and myarmor, plus I like the fact that I can carry just one rifle whether camping, truck gun or boat gun that can be used for small game and up to coyotes or deer if needed. Never know when you might need to defend yourself from a ditch cougar attack "quietly" or at least with a lot less noise. No need to alarm the whole neighborhood.

[jlwilliams]

I am downloading the 30-06, havn't tried the .223 yet.  People ask WHY?  I use a suppressor, and with subsonic loads, no one knows when I shoot a stray dog, cat, fox, or other varmits.  (If it's on my five acres it's a stray)  With the 06 they don't get up and head for other places either.

Thinking of getting another suppressor for my .223, then I will need to develop a sub sonic load for it as well.

I do like Trail Boss for it's ease of loading, in both pistols and rifles.  But I do get an awful lot of unburned powder left in the barrel. 

  Hold on a minute before you shell out any more of that hard to come by cash there, SD.  It's pretty common to shoot .223 through silencers built for .30 centerfire use.  Guys I know who own both tell me not to bother with a 223 silencer, just get a good one for the .308 and use it on both platforms.  You may want to contact the silencer manufacturer just to be on the safe side, then just screw it onto a .223 and try it out.  Maybe you don't need another can.  Centerfire silencers costing as they do, it's worth checking out.

[montveil]

Thanks Dinny for your answers. They now make sense.