New Handi-Doesn't Shoot

[Big Blue]

First trip to the range with the Talo Trapper in 45/70. I was using handloaded 405gr. Rem. bullets over 48.1gr. of IMR3031 and it doesn't shoot 50 yard 3 shot groups less than 7/8"! This load wasn't even worked up for this rifle, but for a Marlin 1895. I have a Nikon 4x40 Buckmasters scope on it and a newly finished Gunstocks stock. For my first range trip with this combo, I couldn't be happier.
My Talo Trapper in .357 didn't do as well. After getting it on paper, it was shooting 3-4" groups with two different types of ammo. The forearm felt like it was binding when I open the action so it may need to be relieved a bit. I'll clean it up, relieve the forearm a bit and maybe I'll also bed it.
Don

[Doublebass73]

How many rounds through the .357 so far? Mine was the same way when I got it new, 4" - 6" groups with factory ammo until I ran 2 full boxes of jacketed ammo through it. After that it settled down to 1 1/4" groups with factory iron sights.

[Big Blue]

Only about 20 rounds of 158gr.magnum loads so far. I didn't even try the handloaded max. rounds. I knew the forearm was tight and didn't want to waste the ammo.
Don

[briannmilewis]

Did you shoot without the forearm? Also, many folks here believe you will not get the best accuracy until you have run 30 or 40 rounds thru the barrel and you "DO NOT" clean it. You have probably heard it all before and it is starting to sound like nagging

[petemi]

I agree with Brian.  Take the forearm off the .357 and pour 50 rounds through it.  I still have to wring out my tirty tirty and '39.  First indications suggest they're both gonna be shooters.  Every time the #$^^**(*^^() rain stops I gotta jump on the mower or the rototiller, or the sprayer or get in the garden.  I haven't had a chance to really dial them in.  I do get to hunt mice in the barn after dark or before dawn with my .357 Blackhawk and some home made shotshells.......I carry my .45-70 as a back-up in case they charge.  It's a lot more fun than a mouse trap.

Pete

[NFG]

Sounds like you have a shooter on your hands.  Be happy.

Not to stir up the pot or get a HooHaa going...but WHAT GOOD is a load that only shoots good WITHOUT THE FOREND on??...unless you plan on shooting it that way for ever??...or unless you plan on ONLY shooting it off the bench.  As soon as you grab the barrel WITHOUT the forend in a hunting situation, you change the barrel harmonics and you are right back where you started from.

You need to address the problems at hand and come up with a workable REALISTIC solution.  The Handi AND T/C are well known for the forend problem and there are many excellent and workable solutions...I don't see ANY LOGIC in taking off the forend to work up a load.  It never worked in all the T/C's I've had and it DOESN'T work in reality in the Handi.

Unless you have a high dollar, hand lapped barrel...EVERY new barrel needs a few rounds to knock off the bark...you can do it by just shooting or by hand lapping yourself with Flitz or Simichrome or a lead lap(easy does it), ro fire lapping...Jacketed bullets work better to start with and you can work up loads at the same time or just roll a LONG cast lead bullet in some of the available fire lapping compounds and fire off a few...fire lapping or "breaking in a barrel" is nothing but a "fast wear out" process to get rid of the rough tooling marks...unless the barrel is a hammer forged or button rifled...and even then it depends on the quality of the button, how many barrerls it was used on and so forth.

Luck

[Swampman]

With the rimmed cartridges I've never seen forearm fit effect accuracy.

[Tractorsaw1]

To each there own.  My 2cents is, I bought a brand new never fired 357 barrel off the classifieds & fit it myself.  Forearm was tight, but i was planning on changing it anyway, but hey i wanna shoot so i go at it.  My dad had a new box of federal american eagle 158 grain jsp he no longer had a firearm for.  I hang a target at 50 & step up to 25 & shoot off hand to get the scope on paper, no bore sight first shot is on paper a few inches low & to the right.  I make an adjustment & back up to about 40 again another off hand shot, still a little low & right, I raise it up some more & settle in my cheap little rest at 50 & shoot.  Ok this is 3 rounds & i adjust it & think will i need "x" amount of rounds before trying a group? Heck no.  Shots number 4 & 5 are touching at 50, third shot opens the group up to about 3/4 inch, but by now the barrel is getting pretty warm.  But I like what i am seeing.

[Mac11700]

Every Handi rifle is different,no matter what.Each will exhibit it's own preference as to forearm pressure or lack there of.Just as each will exhibit bullet weight type and seating depth as well as powder charge and primer preferences. If 1 thing doesn't work,try something else. If you have tried all of the tips & tricks that are in the FAQ's..then it's either the nut behind the gun needs tightening..or you got one that won't shoot good and that happens all the time to all of us at certain times..and to the absolute best rifles produced.

Mac

[gendoc]

Not to stir up the pot or get a HooHaa going...but WHAT GOOD is a load that only shoots good WITHOUT THE FOREND on??...

ooooh !!! thats an easy one !!!!   i might be able to handle that, but yall guys gotta be my back-up

removing the forend, will prove its at fault...if it starts grouping closer.   easy test without doing 15 others things first.

releaving pressure can change alot. kinda like going to the bathroom    

[NFG]

oooohhhhhh NO Mr. Bill....sounds good, but not really....It is pretty well established that ALL firearms with forearms attached to the barrel OR attatched some other place that touch the barrel will cause some kind of accuracy problems...

My premise was working up a load without the forend...shooting without the forend if you set the frame on the "bench" will only show there IS/WAS/MIGHT BE a problem...and you already know there is a high probability of one, the information is scattered all over NEF forums...is it in the forend or in the latch/lockup, loose headspace...loose stock...scope, ammo, shooter...etc.  Shooting a few loads "might" confirm the fact,  just "think" the fact was confirmed, or just make things worse...but again...what use is it?  You STILL have to address the very familiar forend problem.  I just don't see the logic in it or that it is of much value...but I wouldn't want to cause anyone roadrash...if you feel it is helpful then do it...besides, you probably will derive much more value in the handling of your shooter if you practice good breath control, trigger control and target acquisition. 

And it is only a problem if the accuracy ISN'T up to what you want.  For normal hunting accuracy the NEF as is will do all that is required...it only becomes a "problem" IF you want better accuracy.  Some people's idea of "good'n'uff" accuracy is keeping a few rounds inside a pie plate at 50 yds...mine is a skoosh smaller groups.

I've worked with T/C Contenders, T/C Encores, NEF, Ruger #1's, various falling blocks and so forth over the years and bar none...you have to deal with the forend ALONG with all the rest of the various problems associated with each brand of shooter.

Again...not trying to stir the pot...just some thoughts that occured to me way long time ago when I used to accurize Ruger #1's, that impinge on the NEF.  I built a nice benchrest holder I could set the Ruger #1 forend hanger in to test fire.  Can't do it with the NEF.  Yout can't really "free float" the barrel either...the best you can do is find a "sweet spot" on the forend where you normally hold the rifle and work up a load that shoots the best while holding it there as uniformly as possibly.

I steel epoxy full bed the forents right from the gitgo INCLUDING making a metal pillar so the forend is locked on metal to metal.  I've even made some solid aluminum forends, full bedded in steel epoxy, aluminum hangers that mount solidly to TWO forend mounts on the barrel and fit into an aluminum bedding block in an oversized forend WITH pillars and full bedded in steel epoxy held on by 1/4" button head machine screws, torqued down.

Anything beyond pillars and epoxy steel full bedding is overkill and doesn't seem to make much difference, but it is quick and easy to do and starts you out on the right foot...and finding a load and sweet spot can't be overstated

It's fairly difficult to get the point across to work with and through problems that aren't actually problems except in certain circumstances.

And as Mac says(and me... more times than I should) each rifle is has it's own idea of of how the cabbage ate the cow, YOU have to find it, and it's NEVER simple.

Luck

[gendoc]

thats all good....you do it your way, and i'll do the same. ok, mr. bill ?
and my saying is

no 2 guns, or there operators are created equal

[Swampman]

I guess I'm just lucky.  I never have any trouble with my Handis.  Ruger #1 are known to have issues (they are Rugers after all)

I stick with the rimmed cartridges.

[STUMPJMPR]

My .243 would not shoot with the forend binding.  I sanded it back so it opened smoothly and freely and the groups tightened up.

[Mac11700]

Yout can't really "free float" the barrel either...the best you can do is find a "sweet spot" on the forend where you normally hold the rifle and work up a load that shoots the best while holding it there as uniformly as possibly.

You can free float the barrel to relieve any and all stress the forearm is putting on the barrel,even if you have a steel forearm spacer installed.It just takes a lot more sanding to do this than say oh my favorite full length RTV bedding them. BTW NFG..I normally shoot all of mine off the middle of the forearm..directly over the stud screw..that's the beauty of bedding them the way I do...It does make a considerable difference on this type of action

I gotta go with gendoc on this one bro..pulling the forearm off on a erratic shooter for 3 shots,isn't a big deal.If it tames it down,then the person knows if some type of work is going to be needed on the forearm.It's just the way it is with these rifles.Load development has nothing to do with this every time because many people don't reload..Your Ruger repair requires a different hanger for it or at minimum some modification,and in no way impinges on any H&R since this is a totally different set of issues with them as opposed to the H&R's known issues.,besides..do you really think a break actions issue (all of them) is anything considerably close to a falling block's problems with it's forearm?... Apples and oranges my friend...apples and oranges

Mac

[Big Blue]

I did a bit of work on the .357 Handi Trapper. I removed the forend spacer and sanded the rear of the forend until the spacer, once replaced, no longer dragged against the frame when the barrel is pivoted down. I also used a small amount of PC-7 to float the forend. I put a rubber O-ring on the barrel lug as a spacer, the PC-7 went on the inside of the forend in front and behind the inlet for the barrel lug, I wrapped some wax paper around the barrel to keep the PC-7 from sticking to the barrel then re-attached the forend and tightened it down to spread the PC-7. After it dried I removed the O-ring and wax paper so the forend now sits about 1/16" away from the barrel at the front of the forend. I'll see how this works out next time I get to the range.
Don

[Fred M]

I do a simmular fore arm bedding as Mac does, not the same but my two Handi rifles are tack drivers. Of course both are re-bored to match grade. You can find my accurizing the Handi on my web page. Most of the problems I can see are the lousy bores with poor dimensional grooves and lands. If you don't have a good barrel you got nothing.

Shooting a Handi rifle without the forearm is a waste of time and ammo, totally useless.

I thought when Remington toke over they would improve the barrels using hammer forging. Alas that is not the case. I have been wanting a 44Mag Handi but since I got a new Ruger #1 in 9.3x74R I gave up on that idea. Now that rifle shoots very well right out of the box with factory loads.

[gendoc]

fred, the reason why i suggested to remove the forend, was to find out, if in fact it could possibly be the forend at fault causing poor accuracy. not to develop a load.....

its just a easy step in fault finding. before you go all out and do something thats needed or not needed.
which could be a waste of time and money.

if it then groups decent... you have a good idea its the forend fitting.

if it still performs the same..... then, you can continue on with other educated guesses
until you find the problem.  because no one can tell you the reason its not performing correctly
without handling, observing, operating, experimenting with the firearm.

trial and error,  time and material.