LOAD WORKUP

[NFG]

One last bit on working up loads then I will leave it alone.  Groups shot off my benchrest at my backyard range.  Wind just got too fishy and I quit...I will try some off the Harris bipod when the wind dies down...maybe I will get some interesting groups that present more information.



Rifle: 17FB HB Handi.
Powders:  Benchmark and WW748.
Cartridge info: Remington cases weight sorted, necks turned just a bit, flash holes deburred and primer pockets uniformed, trimmed to 1.40", 20 gr Hornady VMax seated to 1.89 COAL, ~0.120" deep.  All groups fired with same 3 cases weighing 84.0, 84.1 and 84.2 gr fired with primer still in...but I didn't number them or mark as to rotation and fire them in order as I sometimes do just to eliminate more variation.  I don't get as anal as I used to when I was benchresting... LOL.

WW748 was one of the first powders I tried when I got this rifle together and it shot the smallest groups back then as it did today, same trim length, same bullet, same COAL, best group 20.0 gr WW748...same as today.  I haven't chronoed it yet...but should be ~3950-4000fs at ~42-44KCUP.  WW748 produces the highest velocity at the lowest pressures of all the powders I've tired...the "other" best powder as far as pressure and velocity is concerned is 8208XBR and I had to order it...don't know when it will be in.

So far Varget, H4895, H4198 and WW748 all provided the best groups, all at nearly the same velocities and pressures(respective of the powder amounts)...with ww748 showing the most consistency and smallest groups.

Don't know what's up with Benchmark...I have some very small 223 Rem groups using this powder and 40 gr Vmax's...I will have to drop down a grain then work up to see...barrel harmonics just not working out at the very top end with this powder.

Anyway...FWIW...a rifle is a system and ALL the pieces and parts have their say...ammo, scope, bedding, how/what/where you shoot...everything.  Don't be discouraged OR get all happy with one or two groups.  When you can fire 5 - 10 shot groups into 1/2" or less average, THEN you know you have a rifle and load to howl about.

Luck

[bikerbeans]

NFG,

Little bitty bullets and a crosswind 12.5 MPH plus/minus 7.5 MPH, I think you did very well.  My 17HMR with that much and variable a crosswind would be all over the place.  You are right, go back on a calm day I bet you have some nice targets to post.

Now if I can get you to work up some 45/120 loads for me to copy.

BB

[NFG]

The wind didn't help, but it didn't really hinder all that much at those velocities and relatively short distance...I shot during wind lulls, but I have lots of BIG Jeffery pines all around me and the wind just plays with your mind if you try to guess it...I watch the tall grasses at the target...when they stop waving too much I touch one off.  Really makes me crazy when I sit for 5-10 minutes with pressure on the go switch, back out and the wind drop just as I sit up to relax, then start back up just as I get set again...

You can see from the targets the dispersion patterns were from powders and amounts...nice triangles...ANY triangle means most of the component factors are falling into place...the barrel harmonic is basically a circle not an ellipse vibrating at some angle.  Usually changing the powder amount up or down or the bullet seating in or out will start the triangels moving in one direction or another which tells you which way to jump on the next load...or it will change from a circle to an ellipse like the 20.0 gr WW748 load...that group could be visuallized as a small ellipse at roughly 45° in the first quadrant.

You can see that from the difference in 0.4 gr of WW748, almost 3/4" difference in group size...the horizontal dispersion of the 20.0 gr load could also be wind or shadow patterns on the target messing with my vision, the barrel harmonics settling in or a combination of some or all.  Increasing/dropping the 20.0 gr load  0.2 might bring up a "bugholer", who knows until I try it.  I don't really think I can see or hold that well anymore or the barrel is capable of that level of accuracy...consistently...but again...who knows until I check it out...it would be nice...If I fire another group like that I will put on a 20X scope and start shooting at 1/4" dots.   That's what load workup is all about.

As I said earlier what you are looking for is consistency in the group.  3 round groups are only good for rough guesses at the components or confirming an already known load hasn't changed.  It will tell you if the bullet ogive has changed from lot to lot or a powder burn rate has changed slightly, or something else has changed that you need to look at/for.

This barrel WAS a 17HMR in it's first life...I rechambered it to 17 FBV and fitted it to a SB2 frame..and your' right, about the smallest group I ever shot with it was around 3/4"...got tired of the "low velo" and HI ammo price...I can reload the 17FB for about the same cost but gain 1500fs...I haven loaded or shot a 17Rem since I built this one...althoughfor sheer velocity I can get 4600fs easy with the 20 Vmax in the 17 Rem...it is just awesom to go for a 350 yds shot and see how little time it takes to get there.  I've been shooting some kind of Ultra Hivelo cannon most of my life, all mostly in the 4000fs range, but that little 17 cal 20 gr seems(and does  )  to get there so much faster and kills all out of proportion to it's size.

Case in point...I have fired a 3 rnd group went back and reloaded the same 3 cases with the same components EXCEPT a different batch of the same bullet and had the group open up an inch.  Whip out the Hornady(Stoney then) bullet gauge and find that the ogive for that batch has changed.  Re-adjust the seating to bring the ogive back to the same point at the earlier "bugholer" group and the group closes back down to the bugholer.

It will be a bit different with your 45-120...what my rifle shoots good won't be much good in your rifle for all the reasons I've mentioned, and because seating for the large bullet/large caliber is just as critical as for the 17...I have my 45-120 throated for the 720 gr bullets seated 4.4" COAL including about 3/4" of the bullet riding the bore.  Besides...I don't take that kind of slapping around for Love OR Money....Hahahahahaha...and I don't post loads unless they are listed in some reloading manual, which all the loads concerning the 17 FB are.  If any of these groups were not listed or above SAAMI specs there WOULDN'T be any chicken scratch on the page.  ...and I wouldn't want to deprive you of ANY of the pleasures surrounding releasing the sear and getting that tingle.  Hahahahahaha

Luck(and a small prayer)

[trotterlg]

The 20gr 748 looks near perfect, a horizontal string, this is most likely trigger pull.  I load 20gr of 760 which is slower, and I get this.  I think you are very close.  Larry

[NFG]

VERY nice group!!!   I will have to try the 760 along with futzing with the 748 a bit.  There should be a fair amount of velocity and pressure difference between the two at the same 20 gr of powder...they're quite a fer piece apart on the burn rate ladder.  The 20 gr of 748 runs about 3950fs at 41KCUP...I'm guessing 35-3700fs and ~34-36KCUP with the 760

Do you have any chrono data on that load, Larry?...I would like something to compare against, I can't find and 17 FB OR 17MK4 loads using 760.  Thanks.

I could be pushing/pulling with the trigger or cheeking, bag drag or any number of other things, but I don't think so... I won't know for certain intil...the target had tree branch shadows dancing all over it, plus these solid dots don't have any reference lines to use...I should have been using 1/2" squares or dots with crossed lines I usually begin using when groups start getting interesting.

My main point was to show what effects a change in powder or amount can make.  Getting a small group wasn't a concern, but it ended up a happy thing when I compared earlier groups with the same powder and load giving basically the same size groups.  I think I just said good and quit looking for anything smaller when I hit a 5.  I'm (almost) positive that's what I thought considering the barrel/rifle/shooting requirements I had in mind for this shooter. I'd rather be shooting sage rats than targets anyday so when I hit something "close enough" I get off the range and head for the boonies.

That variation effect is very evident in comparing the H4189 and Benchmark and the two WW748 groups with only a 0.4 gr change in powder amounts.  I'm glad I didn't have to work too hard to show that.  In some of my "better" barreled varminters several powders shoot very close groups and I really have to work hard to get one powder to bughole.

Luck

[petemi]

You guys amaze me.  I'm envious.  I used to be able to do that, but not anymore.  Usuallly, It's not my load that's off, but the nut behind the trigger.  About one in three shots I can honestly say "Oops, that was me."  The other two are "Is that me or something else."  Usually, I have to be content with my rifles shooting MOD (Minute Of Deer).  The Handi .223 seems to be the exception.  I think it shoots homing bullets.  It will and does shoot sub MOA even with me at the wheel.

Pete

[NFG]

I know what you mean...the "jeans" are starting to show up...the family twitch and jerk...eyes going south so fast I need a new pair every 4 months or so...coke bottles very soon.  I think Mother Nature sucks sometimes.

Worked on a couple more powders today...numbered the cases and fired in rotation just to see...and shot off the bipod so get a comparison maybe...got a couple targets with nice logrithmic spirals when I connected the dots which was interesting.  So far I've tried just about all that fit in the optimum burn rate for this size case except H335 and H322 and I will try those tomorrow a.m.  Eliminated H4895 and started on AA2230...this 17 FB is turning out to be a perfect example of what I was trying to illustrate...that load workup is just that WORK, and every little variation will mess with you if the barrel is questionable.

I'm out of 760 until I get to town and running out of 748.  I'm getting some real nice circles, triangles, horizontals and verticals but nothing squeezing down below about half inch.  Hope the 8208 comes in soon.

I just don't think this barrel will ever shoot worth a hoot. It has several loose/tight spots and the last 4 inches tightens up also...I might cast a lead slug and polish it or Flitz the heck out it as a last resort.  I've got a couple hundred down the tube already with nothing spectacular to show for it...I hardly ever waste this much time, effort or components getting a rifle to shoot...I start with a hi quality barrel to begin with which is half the battle anyway.  I could score another barrel and stub it out on this frame but I'm in the process of doing a 20-223(20 Practical)...just waiting for the reamer to arrive tomorrow so by Friday I will be starting the load workup and this 17 FB will be a fast fading BAD nightmare.   LOL The 17FB has about the same accuracy as it had when it was a 17 HMR but lots more velocity so I can't really complain...just load'm'up and go shooting.

Luck

[dpe.ahoy]

Larry, that is one sweeeeet group!  Pete, I'm in your group, MOD and I'm pretty happy.  I have several that will break an inch, I'm sure they will do better but I can't very often.  DP

[trotterlg]

For pure consistancy my Savage 10 in 17 Remington is by far the best.  It will put as many as you like inside an inch at a hundred yards from a cold clean barrel.  25.6 gr of Winchester 760 and Berger 30gr BTHP match bullets, I stopped working on the load when I found it.  Larry

[petemi]

Larry, that is one sweeeeet group!  Pete, I'm in your group, MOD and I'm pretty happy.  I have several that will break an inch, I'm sure they will do better but I can't very often.  DP

Gettin old ain't wonderful.......but it's better than going off to the Great Gut Pile in the sky.....lookin up at grass roots.  I can still shoot o.k., because most times I'm resting on something.  I'm having more trouble lately doing small precision stuff in the shop.  I put a hammer spur on yesterday, and because of the jiggles and poor vision, had a bit of trouble getting the screw on the Allen wrench. My Dad's mom was senile at 65, so I guess I'm still ahead of the game there.  Duh? Huh? What?

Pete

[NFG]

Yesterday I chrono'ed 20 gr 760 at ~3356fs and still only ~3/4" triangle...20 gr 748 at ~3665fs and started on H322...18.5 gr at ~4009fs up to ~4125fs with a grain more.

I also changed the bullet seating out by 0.002" on the H322 load and went from a 3/4" triangle to 1 1/6" triangle...think it is telling me something. 

The 20-223 reamer came in yesterday so after breakfast that project takes over... but I will continue work with the 17 FB for a few more tries...I really like the velocity of the H322 and the groups aren't any worse than the other powders...~400fs plus more velocity will definitely be a plus.

My best load with my Shilen barreled Rem 700 17 Rem is with 4320 and the 20 VMax...basically one ragged hole.  I put the Shilen barrel on a few years ago after the OEM barrel finally gave up.  Velocity is just awesome...I had to check it against my Oehler 33 to believe the Chrony Beta...20-25 rounds before accuracy falls off but it's very easy to clean.  My 22-243 will get close with 40 gr Vmax's but won't match it.

Be nice if this McGowen barrel shoots tiny groups with 32gr VMax's...I'd be VERY happy with anything less than 1/2"...I'll start with IMI brass but have some Lapua 223 brass I will end with.

Luck

[NFG]

One more then I'm REALLY finished, interest seems a bit thin...had to find out why the 17 FB wasn't doing so well...AFTER...I got the 20-223 PRACTICAL put together.

I pulled the 17 FB down, set the barrel up in the lathe and dialed it in...the muzzle was oblong by 0.0115"...no wonder I can't get this thing to shoot much less than 1".  Shouldn't be surprised at all...every Handy barrel I've checked has had something out of whack.  But for the intended use and cost I don't have any problems with those "enigmas".  You can't make a silk purse out of ......

I recrowned it a scoosh and will use it for close in <125 yd shots...it will handle sage rats out that far OK without wasting too many shots.

Another example of load workup...Rem 700, McGowen 26" - 20 cal bbl chambered in 20 PRACTICAL(20-223)...haven't chronoed any yet but velo should be around 4000fs +/- 100 fs or so, Horn 32gr VMax(wrong data on the target ), COAL measured using the Stoney 17 cal bullet insert. 15 rounds and two squirrels to hit the sweet spot with the first powder I tried...Varget...always an excellent powder...sometimes you get lucky but using educated guestimates.  Lake City 99 brass neckturned to give 0.226" OD with seated bullet.  This LC 99 stuff is exceptionally uniform as to weight and neck walls....every one I measured ran 0.012" +/- a couple tenths.  The reamer had a 0.228" neck...if it had been a "normal" 223 neck it would have ran about 0.233" and I wouldn't have had to neck turn at all, should have checked first.

You can see how the groups changed by going up and down 0.3 gr of powder and 0.010" seating depth.  Starting load was 27gr Varget at 2.925" COAL final load was 26.7 gr Varget at 2.915" COAL.



3 tenths of a grain of Varget difference between the top circled group at 27.0 gr  and the one at the right at 26.7 gr.....Plus the difference in barrel quality...AND I didn't even have the recoil lug installed as I'm waiting for a Tubbs tapered lug to arrive.

Luck

[bikerbeans]

And the winner is 26.7 grains of varget.  Very nice.