Author Topic: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems  (Read 3114 times)

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Offline jmd384

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New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« on: April 28, 2010, 09:01:23 AM »
I recently purchased my first Handi about a month ago.  It is 223 caliber with a 24" long bull barrel.  I had read quite a bit about Handi Rifles in the forums prior to purchasing it.  I gave it a thorough cleaning as I got it home.  When I used a blue LED light on the muzzle end, it appeared to already have some pitting in the bore even though I had yet to shoot it.   I then went through the bore lapping process with flitz polish in hopes that it would smooth out some.  I then finished lapping the bore with JB paste.  It was my understanding that the JB is slightly less abrasive than the flitz polish.  This is why I had finished it with JB.  After completing the bore lapping process, the rough pitted surface appearance was still there.  I didn’t think it would have cleaned it up much, but it was worth a shot.  Is this a typical scenario for new Handi Rifle barrels?  Have never purchased a rifle that had a bore in this poor of condition right out of the box.  It is tough to tell what the bore looks like when you’re purchasing a rifle (especially Handi’s) because they are sold dirty.  

After going through the cleaning and lapping process I took it to the range.  I tried breaking in the barrel by shooting and cleaning between every round for the first 30, and then I began to clean in between every 3 shots after that.  I have put about 250 rounds through at this point with very little success.  I can not get the rifle to shoot consistently better than 2” at 100yards.  After my first trip to the range I did glass bed the forearm pillar and found that it did not provide any improvements.  I have also tried shooting it with and with out the forearm on it.  I have had mixed results with both.  I’ll get a group that’s .75-1”, and the next three shots will be strung out over a 3” group.  I have tried several different factory loads all which provided the same inconsistent grouping.  I have tried Remington 55grain FMJ’s, Remington 50grain JHP, Winchester 45grain JHP, and Hornady 55grain VMax.  From what I had been reading in the forums, if a Handi won’t shoot well without the forearm on it, it will never shoot well.  

Two other things I plan to look at are the throat and crown.  It looks like the crown was not done properly and could use some work.  I also plan on soft seating a bullet in the chamber so I can determine if the throat was cut too long.  Does anybody have any other suggestions?  I’m to the point where I feel that I may need to contact NEF and possibly send the rifle in.  I really hate doing this especially with American made products, but I don’t know what else to do if the rifle doesn’t shoot well after checking the throat (assuming its okay) and redoing the crown.  

I forgot to mention that I don't believe the tirgger is causing any issues.  The trigger pull feels light and crisp to me. 

Offline necchi

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 09:40:26 AM »
First guess;
 Simply try leaving the bore dirty, mine won't shoot well until after 8-10 shot's, then it's good til about 200-250 or so and begins to copper foul.
 And, it's temp sensitive as far as barrel heating. I get 3 consecutive shot's, then without a cool down period, the shot's will vertical string.
found elsewhere

Offline jmd384

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 10:59:27 AM »
Thanks for the input.  I did actually try leaving the barrel dirty at one point.  I was only cleaning the carbon out with Hoppe's 9 solvent (not copper solvent).  I was trying to let the copper stay there and fill in the voids.  Unfortunately it didn't seem to help.  I'll have to repeat this without any cleaning to see if that makes a differance. 

I hear you on the barrel temp.  The rounds will definately walk if it isn't cool. 

Offline petemi

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 11:15:44 AM »
I think the key is dirty.  I think you're over cleaning, and I don't believe I'd ever lap a barrel until after I had put a few dozen rounds through it.  I clean only when accuracy drops off, not before.  Most, if not all my rifles shoot better fouled, and not only Handis.

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Offline ssjohnnie

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 12:02:48 PM »
I am glad to see I am not the only one with a pitted factory barrel i have a 45/70 BC that came that way from the factory right out of the box but it shoot fair for a 45/70 so i have not sent it back sofar also had a 223 ultra varmit that would never shoot no matter what you did to it and two trips back to H&R it found a new home and i got 223 that shoots moa with most anything i feed it hot or cold it shoots to the same place its not made in the US sorry to say this is my 2 cent on it I would send it back and if that did fix it sell it lifes to short to mess with one that wont shoot ;D ;D ;D

Offline jmd384

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 01:16:46 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.  It looks like dirty is my best option.  Its easy enough to shoot a bunch of rounds without cleaning and see if it settles down.  Messing around with it is kind of fun, but not getting any better results is just frustrating.  I'll keep it dirty and see what happens.  If it doesn't work, I'll give it a solid cleaning and back to H&R it will go. 

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 01:29:19 PM »
jmd,

I bought a NIB 223 a few months ago and shot kinda okay at first then became a dismal performer.  I subscribed to the DO NOT CLEAN approach and never polished or cleaned the bore other than initially because it was really nasty when I got it.  I tried many different bullets and loads but no cigar.    I kept going through the FAQs and other posts and finally did the following 3 things.

Relieved the front end of the forestock spacer by sanding the spacer so there is zero push on the barrel.  Forestock is actually a tad loose now.  I did NOT install an "O" ring or nylon washer on the barrel stud.

Polished the muzzle crown with a ball bearing and very fine polishing compound, an automotive brand,  until it was as smooth as I could get it.

Cleaned out the bore with dry patches and then fire polished the barrel ONCE with a fairly abrasive automotive rubbing compound.  I used a 55 grain FMJBT @ 3,000 FPS for the polishing.  Might be wiser to use a slower load.

Gun now shoots a 1" or better group at 100 yards with my reloads that previously would do no better than 3" groups at this distance.  Also, the vertical string after a few shots doesn't appear when I shoot 10 consequtive rounds through the gun.  I have not cleaned the barrel bore since I fire polished it.  I am now fine tuning a load and have hopes of 0.7" groups at 100 yards with a cheap chinese scope.  I didn't do any trigger work and I did not remove & re-bed the scope rail, lap the scope rings or any of the other ideas from the FAQ.

Also, I do not have a bore light or scope or for that matter the eye sight to see minor barrel bore corrosion so no input on that issue.

Good luck and don't give up.  The day I shot my first 5 shot 1" inch group I had a really big smile on my face.

BB
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 01:45:37 PM »


Barrels aren't supposed to be pitted from the start. Sorry...that to me is unacceptable. You can call H&R and discuss what you have done and see if they issue you a call tag to return it to them. I don't know if they will be able to do anything since your 2" groups is within the factory acceptable range.

If you elect to keep it,check the FAQ's for some quick and easy ways to touch up the crown on the rifle. This can and will effect your groups. While in the FAQ's look at all of the other tips for getting the best accuracy from your rifle. Contrary to many here, I shoot with a clean barrel when shotting for groups.If a rifle barrel won't shoot good when clean,there is something wrong with it.These barrels can be exceedingly accurate and you will note everyone has their own technique for getting the most from them. Some fundamentals for shooting them is universal,no matter what and that is having a smooth but complete trigger pull on each and every shot. This is one thing those who aren't used to shooting a single shot break action have the greatest issue with.Transitioning over to a shotgun type trigger from a true rifle type trigger is something a person needs to practice doing,and it isn't easy if you have been shooting most bolt actions for the longest time,so it is something many fail to do.

Bedding the forearms is another thing many have had luck with doing various ways. A simple o-ring used starting off seems to help the majority of people instead of a full hard bedding job.The reason is these rifles are not like a bolt action receiver at all in regards to how they best preform. This is due to the variances each Handy Rifle has. No 2 barrels are exactly fitted the same,since each is hand fitted and there are differences in the depth of the the barrel lug and it's position where it is mounted on the barrel.This is easily seen when switching factory fitted barrels in the position where the barrel screw stud is in the same forearm.Many will be real close to the same place,many won't be and will be tighter or looser.This is why experimenting with the forearm tightness is important. You can tighten up or loosen up the fit somewhat of the barrel to the receiver by adjusting the tightness or looseness of the the forearm. Just look at how the barrel fits into the receiver and then how the forearm effects it when to take it apart and put it back together.

I've tried many different ways of fitting/bedding the forearms.From just doing a simple o-ring on the barrel screw stud,to drilling out the forearm and installing a brass insert so I have metal to metal contact,and then doing a full skim coat of bedding and even adding powdered stainless steel to the mix. I've also completely free floated the barrel channel to doing nothing with else with them  and just use a o-ring on the barrel screw stud.Lately I have been opening the barrel channel completely allowing 1/16" to 1/8" gap all the way around then doing a full soft bed of RTV silicon bought at Auto Zone in a tube.This has given me my best shot to shot consistency of any treatment I have used provided I torque the screw down the same each time I have removed the barrel.

I don't know if any of what I do will help you,it may or may not.Like I said..we each have our on way of doing things,and sometimes it runs counter to what the rest of the herd is doing.You can experiment some more or call them and ask about send it in. If you keep it,there are ways of shooting it with special treated bullets to remove the pitting completely,but it does wear the barrel down in doing so and could effect the shooting life of it.There are many pro & cons from dozens of places about doing this.The name of the product I am referring to is Tubb's Final Finish kit.

Do check the OAL of your chamber to get a idea of where you should seat your bullet depth..this is critical to do,since chamber dimensions do vary from barrel to barrel,and should be a standard practice for any one who reloads their own ammunition.Tweaking your rifle to produce sub moa groups or even consistent groups can be at times a very time consuming process...Many times we get lucky many other times we don't and think we should have a super accurate rifle from the get go with any Handy,and it doesn't always work out to be that way.

Good Luck

Mac
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Offline gendoc

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 01:53:27 PM »
i don't use factory ammo, so i really can't help ya..
but, with handloads the tables might turn if you find what it likes. i have heard that win white box
does a great job in the .223's. again.. i don't know...
i hope you get your problem resolved before you resolve the handi...
i would in turn put a claim in on the pitting
good luck
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Offline quatroclick

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 05:06:53 PM »
I would double check the scope mount attachment.  I am not sold on the whole idea.  Also, my 223 had a pretty tight lockup, and I had to lift up the release lever in order to get a good lockup.  Accuracy (and brass) suffered if I didn't do that. 

If all is well I get groups of not much more than an inch for 10 shots.  If all is not well, I get 2 inch groups, or sometimes two 1 inch groups..........

Offline jmd384

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 08:02:50 AM »
I did check the scope rail and rings to ensure they were tight.  I actually tried using two separate scopes to eliminate this variable.  I started with a Bushnell Elite 3-9x40 and then switched it out to a Redfield 4-12 power scope.  I had no difference with the scopes I used.  I also tried leaving the barrel dirty with no additional luck.  I put an additional 100rnds through it last week, and it would not settle down.   I called up H&R and sent the rifle back to them yesterday.  I’ll let you know how my luck goes after I hear back from them.  Thanks for all of the input. 

Offline jmd384

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Re: New 223 Handi Rifle accuracy problems
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 06:52:22 AM »
Looks like H&R is fitting a new barrel as they agreed with me that the pitted barrel was junk.  At least the customer service has been fairly good so far.  I can't wait to get it back and start fiddling around with it again.  I hope I can get it to shoot well.