"Point Shooting" as a survival skill?

[jlwilliams]

Any 'point shooters' or 'instinct shooters' here?  I'm not really sure if this is a 'survival skills' or a 'general shooting' topic; if the mods feel I posted in the wrong place, I apologise.

  I just read an article about Lucky McDaniels who was a trick shot and shooting guru of the '50s, and it lead me to remembering hearing about the Army's 'Quick Kill" program and manual.  Both the Army and Lucky used Daisy BB rifles to teach a similar method of instinctive point and shoot.  Starting with the BBs and working up to 22s, then either a military rifle or a shotgun, depending on if we're talking Lucky McDaniel or the Army.

  Now I'm thinking about buying a pellet gun that's as close as I can get to a Glock and finding a good air rifle to try this with.  My air guns that I have now are all higher power adult airgund, no BB guns.  I'm thinking that setting up a practice of trying to shoot washers tossed in the air with BBs may bring my overall shooting skills up a notch.

  Anybody here get trained with the BB guns when you were in the Army?  The program was used during the Viet Nam era, but I don't know exactly when or how wide spread it was.

  I'm thinking this may be a fun bit of shooting over the upcoming summer.  Any input or suggestions? 

[don heath]

When I was young (and good looking and ...) I met BillJordan. He gave a demo on quick draw and point shooting in Rhodesia...We were in the middle of a war, and IPSC was just taking off. People were interested in 'technique'!!! I have competed in IPSC since 1980 and made the Zim team a couple of times. I am 'pretty good'. However...every time I have had to use a handgun in self defence the sights were 100% useless. Sights are irrelevant when a) Riding a motorbike and shooting left handed. Shooting out of a car windo at night, shoot a hyaena that is standing on top of you and shooting a poacher at 2am who has just shot you with his AK47.

Because of my Interest in IPSC I carried a Semi Auto in the bush for years. I still carry a Browning HP with Crimson trace grips on occasion, but gave up on Glock and CZ pistols...they couldn't hack the sand. So I started carrying my revolver more and more...and I remembered Bill Jordans demo, Made up some wax bullets and got practicing. It served me very well. I am no Bill Jordan! But I can draw and hit an IPSC target at 10m with my .44 in arround .7 of a second. Go to the IPSC club and see what times folk are running with an auto and using the sights (average 1.2 seconds from the buzzer).  I recomend Bills book. Also, now have speer plastic bullets for my .44 and .357...a hell of alot easier to use than wax for indoor practice and when you are slow on the draw and fast on the trigger they hurt just enough to wake you up without needing to go to the doc! 

[IOWA DON]

When I was a kid of about 12 years old I read an article about the miltary training soldiers to point shoot with BB guns. I had a Crossman V-350 (slide the barrel to cock repeater) BB gun so took the sights off and practiced with it. After a while I could toss a can ito the air and hit it three times before the can hit the ground. I would guess poit shooting is very valuable in regard to self defense so that the way I do most of my practicing with my Walther PPK. Also, I think a pistol one can point shoot well with is a much better defense pistol than one for which the sights need to be used. My .22 target pistols seem to be much more accurate than my Walther PPK if the sights are used. However, for point shooting the PPK is much better.

[mechanic]

My Dad was a stickler for instinct shooting.  We never got sights until we learned to point and shoot any gun.  Of course that was for target.  We also didn't get to hunt until we got sights......

My wife can point and shoot a handgun better than I can with sights, and I've been shooting over 50 yrs.  The first time I handed her one, I showed her how it functioned but didn't mention sights.  She didn't need them, and I chose to not confuse her when what she had instictively was fine.  At 25 feet she can empty a revolver into the head or heart of a silouette target.  Good enough.

[45-70.gov]

i just  practice  with my  crimson trace grips

point  and flash  the laser   see where it went

also  unload the gun
keep the laser  on
practice trigger  control

[gypsyman]

Iowa Don, did pretty much the same as you. Always had a Daisy BB gun with me. Next door neighbor and I use to throw cans up in the air and practice for hours. Have to get another BB gun and try it out with my boys. gypsyman

[Hodr]

In 1963 I met Bill when I changed High schools.  Soon there were 4 of us running around together but Bill was obsessed with Magnificent Seven and the special effects. Upshot was there were 4 of us running around loading wax bullets into cheap single action revolvers and shooting from the hip.  ( we used mag primers to push wax)   5 years later I am looking at the first combat in cities course I have ever seen over at the Air Force in Berlin.  I borrowed an old Air Force M&P and shot over 200 first time through.  An old NCO tossed me his 4" barrel combat masterpiece and said to try it again with a real gun and speed (strip) loaders.  Second time through I matched course record.  Since I was Army they asked about training and sight picture.  I felt a little foolish but told them i never looked at the sights.  After I got out, I bought my own Combat Masterpiece and moved up later on to a 65-5 S&W in 357 mag, never needed sights.

blindhari

[bilmac]

I agree that when you really need to defend yourself, sights will be the last thing you will be thinking about. As for long guns, if you can hit with a shotgun then you are good enough in my thinking, your rifle will point just as well as any shotgun.

Learning to hit instinctively with a handgun may take a little work. I would start by picking a gun that points the best for you. My first handgun was a S&W. I used to shoot at running cottontails with it a lot and never hit one. Then I bought a single action 22. All of a sudden I could hit running cottontails, not every time by a long shot, but enough to tell me one gun pointed where I looked the other didn't.

I was in an almost real life situation once that showed me how things might really happen. It was a training scenerio at a cop school I was attending. We were given paintball guns for the exercise. My partner and I went into a room and right away things started going bad. One bad guy was going to "show" me his new shotgun. I grabbed the barrel left handed and forced it up. We thrashed around long enough for me to decide this was more than a guy wanting to show me his new gun so I started to draw mine. When I started to draw, the bad guys partner went for a handgun in the couch. Almost without thinking and while still wrestling with the first guy, I plugged the guy with the handgun three solid hits. All this happened so fast that my partner was still standing there picking his nose when it was all over.

This was across the room distances, so accuracy, even for point shooting, was not a big issue. But then you watch some of these survailance camera shootings that are all the rage on the tube these days, and you wonder  how anyone could be such baaad shots as some of these people. Especially the crooks seem to be laughable. The storekeepers are usually some better.

Common guys, this is something that we really do need to be better at, I don't want to see one of our own on a camera some day blowing away 6 or 9  shots and not touching a feather.

[Hodr]

Just picked up a Charter Arms 12oz On Duty in .38 sp. for conceled carry.  I have 500 low power rounds loaded to start break in with muscle memory.  It for sure is not a 65-5 S&W but I think it will do.   Enough practice with it and 5 38+p should be adequate if I need help in an anti-social situation.  I know that +p really doesn't add any thing extra in muzzle velocity in a snubby, but FLASH/BANG can sometimes get more attention than just shooting someone.  Since I am a civilian now I have always believed in giving the other fellow a chance to reconsider options.  Letting someone discover a way to exit has always appealed more to me than defending my actions in court.

blindhari

[don heath]

Blindhari...never give the bad guy a chance to reconsider...he might get saved- and then you have just picked a fight with the devil.

If a guy is worth shooting at , he is worth hitting, and if he is worth hitting once, he is worth hitting twice. I appreciate as a civilian you shouldn't shoot him in the back if he falls on top of his weapon to make sure he is out of the fight...but mozambique drill was invented for a reason (two in the body, one in the head, guarantees the bad guys dead.) It it is what you have trained to do as a carreer troopie or policeman, surely that is defensible in a US court?

[jlwilliams]

Quick update.  I've customised a BB gun with no sights and an adult sized stock to start practicing point shooting.  If that goes well and translates to better shotgunning, I'll do the same with an air pistol and work up to a centerfire pistol.

[Couger]

What would be acceptable accuracy be snap or point shooting with a handgun?

I'm thinking pie plate size, which would still be smaller than most adult males' chest, heart, lung-areas.

[Hodr]

Mr Heath
I am not entirely altruistic.  I have every intention of being on target with first shot if I have to use a firearm.  Enhanced flashbang out of a 38 +P snub is to convince everyone else there the man going down was no accident.  Realisticly the +p round is not going to do much more out of a 2" barrel than standard 38 special load.  It is the second priority target I want to shake up, not the first, I don't want the first to even know I'm armed.  If at night I would hope that I get a couple inches of flame to indicate my somewhat truculent nature and attitude. 

blindhari

[teamnelson]

What would be acceptable accuracy be snap or point shooting with a handgun?

I'm thinking pie plate size, which would still be smaller than most adult males' chest, heart, lung-areas.

+1, a 9" paper plate.

I appreciate this thread. Point shooting, and rapid firing a DA revolver are two very good skills to master now. I'm still working with my Model 10, but after that retired LEO at the range showed me how to rapid fire a Smith, and did it faster and more accurately than a 1911 on the next lange, I'm sold.

[mechanic]

To this day, with bad eyes and a not so steady stance as I once had, I still do much better in an offhand position if I snap shoot.  If I try and take careful aim, I get shaky.  At reasonable distance, I would not be afraid to take a snap shot with my old 45-70, and often practice a few at the range.  If you watch most trick shot artists, they are all snap shots.  Little aiming involved.  Bear in mind, I'm not talking bench rest here, but learning the art of snap shooting is a little like playing golf.  It's practiced muscle memory, and if you think about it too much, the brain will become a liability instead of an asset.....

[Couger]

I appreciate this thread. Point shooting, and rapid firing a DA revolver are two very good skills to master now. I'm still working with my Model 10, but after that retired LEO at the range showed me how to rapid fire a Smith, and did it faster and more accurately than a 1911 on the next lange, I'm sold.  

Dang!  Wish i could have seen that too.  When I lived in Utah, we had a UHP who used to carry a shrouded M36, M37 or whatever the lightweight .38 snubby is, IN HIS POCKET ALREADY IN HIS HAND when he'd approach a driver's window he'd pulled over.  The idea that he could shoot through his jacket if needed.

Personally I like the idea of carrying a snubby in some situations.

What are the better types of manstopping loads for a snubby?  Or for stopping an asailent at close, CLOSE range from such a gun?

I once read a story about a cop who tried shooting a big muscled BG with a 110 grainer from a .357 that hit the shoulder/deltoid area and richochetted up through his skin!  Managed to subdue the BG who had a big knife, who went to jail with a "big bandaid" (bandage I'm sure).

But that story has always reminded me I need my handguns stuffed with slower heavier bullets than lighter, faster ones!  What is a good short-barreled or snubby load?

[bilmac]

It's pretty easy to get good with a long gun. When you were kids, didn't you all become masters of the Daisy,and just quit using the sights. I remember shooting pinto beans from about 20 feet, no sights. Years later when my garden was infested with grasshoppers I cleaned them out with my old Daisy, no sights. Last time I went prairie dog hunting with one of my old buddies he was shooting a 22 that the rear sight was actually gone. Shooting about as many as I was with my newest whiz bang. I think it's just a matter of shooting enough bullets.

[don heath]

Amateurs practice until they get it right…professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong.   Bilmac is right- Practice. I do about 2-300 dummy reloads a day when not hunting and fifty or so live rounds a week -  and when training for a pistol comp, I try to spend an hour every morning doing dry fire and an hour every evening putting holes in paper.

[Hodr]

I am an old man now (63).  I have given up my 65-5 S&W as too heavy, too bulky.  I am now headed towards a lighter  revolver.  Over the years there has been, Iver Johnson 22, Ruger single six 22., S&W 38 combat masterpiece, S&W 65-5 357 mag, 9mm auto, and now down to a lightweight 38.  Each has left a memory of it's own that is a part of how I learn to handle a new weapon.  I am not a professional by any means but I do have a total of 10,000 plus rounds of point and shoot.  It is sort of a cumalitive skill set.

blindhari

[jlwilliams]

I appreciate this thread. Point shooting, and rapid firing a DA revolver are two very good skills to master now. I'm still working with my Model 10, but after that retired LEO at the range showed me how to rapid fire a Smith, and did it faster and more accurately than a 1911 on the next lange, I'm sold.  

Dang!  Wish i could have seen that too.  When I lived in Utah, we had a UHP who used to carry a shrouded M36, M37 or whatever the lightweight .38 snubby is, IN HIS POCKET ALREADY IN HIS HAND when he'd approach a driver's window he'd pulled over.  The idea that he could shoot through his jacket if needed.

Personally I like the idea of carrying a snubby in some situations.

   Never underestimate the 'lowly' snubby.  I have also encountered some old lawmen who came up during the days when peace officers carried 38 wheel guns and some of those guys could use a double action revolver in ways that defy words.

  The best point shooting I have seen was an old man with a S&W five shot pocket reveolver (maybe a model 36?  Whatever, the small one)  He'd quick draw from concealment and hit five clay targets layed on the berm.  Sounded like he had pulled a MAC10 out of his pocket, only the accuracy was something like you couldn't do with a MAC.  Just a burst of noise and five broken targets.  This guy had spent many years as an undercover detective back when I was in diapers.

  He has since past.

[Victor3]

 A related thing to think about is point shooting (or whatever handgun SD) in low light. My one serious handgun SD situation involved holding a flashlight in one hand and a 38 snub in the other, so over the years I've practiced various gun/flashlight techniques.

 After some recent practice in the dark I don't feel as confident today as I used to using a separate light. I've come to the conclusion that I'm gonna have to look into fitting my SD guns with lights or lasers.

[teamnelson]

Victor, my wife has the CT grips on her SP-101 and I like 'em. My only concern on lights is that they work both ways unless they are so bright as to disorient, and that only if they shine in the eyes of your target. And there are techniques for countering opponents with lights. I like nite sights, or at least a big bright front site for point shooting. My .02.

[Victor3]

 TN - I'm probably gonna bite the bullet and get CT grips for one of my snubs. Been looking at them for a while but it's hard to pony up the cash when the over-molded ones I want cost more than what I paid for the guns.

 I understand what you're saying about active light sources. Still, I think they generally provide an advantage where a trained individual is facing the average bad guy.

 I was kinda underwhelmed with Trijicon sights; not much good in really dark since you can't see the target. In low light they didn't seem any better than white dots.

[jlwilliams]

Update:  I got this  http://www.shootwhereyoulook.com/landing/skeetshooting.asp  book and DVD set.  The short story is you do his drills with an airgun for a few weeks, then with a shotgun.  A week of just spending a few minutes twice a day practicing fitting up the gun to shoulder and cheek, then snap shooting at a target, then shooting while swinging through, then shooting thrown targets.  You do all that with a BB gun without sights.  Once you're done with that, you do it with less rounds with a shotgun.  Tough to shoot a few thousand shotshells, not so tough with the BBs.  I have no doubt that shooting asprins out of the air with a BB gun is a skill that carries over well to a full sized gun, besides, it looks like fun.  His general thing is geared toward wing shooting, but you can do the same with a pistol or even a bow and arrow.  You get lots of practice in for real low dollars with the BBs, and it likely works as well as he says as far as translating to improved shotgunning.  I got the material, read the book, and plan on starting into the daily program after I get through some other things that are taking up huge time just now.  Mid June I'll have more time.  I have a BB gun that I made an adult sized stock for and ground off the sights.

  Just from what I've seen reading through the material, I recomend buying his book/disk.  Well worth it regardless if you are a good shooter wanting to be better or if you are wanting a good system to teach your kids wing shooting/ instinct shooting.  That is, after all, a big reason why I want to learn instinct shooting as a survival skill.  I want the skill, and I want to pass that skill on to my kids.  This program makes for a fun shooting experience.