Handiholic questions

[bikerbeans]

What about the generally accepted rule that 'everyone needs at least two 45-70's' ?

Mc

So it is written, so it will be.  On the way are a new 45 70 (2007) handi and a used 1988 vintage 45 70 (supposedly a factoried fitted accesory barrel, any thoughts on this?).  New gun will get optics and shoot jacketed, old one iron sights and cast lead.  I am thinking 500 grain Hornday for the jacketed and 405 grain cast from Missouri Bullet co.  Can't wait to try these.  Also, I am putting a wood stock w/o recoil pad on one of the guns; this gun will be the one I let my friends shoot.

Sadly I must report that the Rossi MZ will stay.  It took me 20 years of searching to find an accurate front loader, I ain't starting over.

[gcrank1]

The LEE 45-70 moulds throw pretty good bullets. Wheel Weight 340gr. (#90373) for 'plinking' work well and save lead, it goes fast with heavies. Their 405gr., and up will probably equal those bought bullets.
13.0 of Unique makes a good 'all rounder' that has shot well in a number of rifles, old and new, without abuse of gun or shooter.

[bikerbeans]

The LEE 45-70 moulds throw pretty good bullets. Wheel Weight 340gr. (#90373) for 'plinking' work well and save lead, it goes fast with heavies. Their 405gr., and up will probably equal those bought bullets.
13.0 of Unique makes a good 'all rounder' that has shot well in a number of rifles, old and new, without abuse of gun or shooter.

Would love to cast, but I am banned from melting lead by my wife (Reg. Nurse) and my doctor.  I have respiratory issues and must use oxygen 24/7.  Still get to shoot so I am happy!

[gcrank1]

Good for you ! Keep on, Buddy !*!*!
Red Skelton once said,"Life is great, without it I'd be dead". (Love that guy!)
Maybe you could get the mould(s) and have a friend cast you some now & then ?

[quickdtoo]

Congrats on the 45-70s, great choice!!  Hornady's minimum recommended velocity is 1300fps for the 500gr RN in their Ruger data, the problem you'll encounter is their recommended COL is 2.925", you'll likely not be able to load it to that length without reaming the throat. 

Tim

[bikerbeans]

thanks Tim for the heads up on the 500 grain reload length.  I'm lazy, probably opt for a bullet that fits versus reaming the barrel.

[quickdtoo]

Running a throating reamer by hand isn't hard or expensive with a rented reamer, I posted my experience in the FAQs. 

Tim

[gcrank1]

On single shot rifles I rarely crimp or ,if at all, only slightly. If you seat that long nosed puppy in a bit deeper and, if needed, crimp above the front driving band it might fit in the 'typically' long throated H&R. If not, you could maybe 'dedicate' by shortening a few cases just enough to get the OAL or crimp groove where you need it.
The 45-70 is forgiving enough that by doing so you may not hurt accuracy at all.

[quickdtoo]

it might fit in the 'typically' long throated H&R. I

H&R 45-70s aren't typically long throated, they're the exception, they're notoriously short throated, that's why I throat reamed 3 of mine. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,106312.msg1098302773.html#msg1098302773

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,158273.msg1098695123.html#msg1098695123

[bikerbeans]

Tim,

Below is from the Ramshot load data for the 45/70 Govt.  They have 2.55" for the length.  Does this sound right? My experience with ramshot pistol and rifle powders is the upper end of the load range tends to be a little hot for my taste.

Tom


45-70 Government (Standard Rifles less than 28,000 psi)
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-20" ■ Primer: WIN WLR ■ Bullet Diameter .458"

POWDER       BULLET          Charge Wt. Velocity Charge Wt Velocity Pressure  OAL

X-Terminator 300 SIE HP FN 42.0          1,740    46.0          1,900   27,800    2.550
X-Terminator 350 HDY RN    40.0          1,600    44.0          1,740    27,520   2.550
X-Terminator 500 HDY RN    30.0          1,150    35.0          1,320    27,500   2.550

45-70 Government (Ruger No. 1 and 3 less than 40,000 psi)
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-20" ■ Primer: WIN WLR ■ Bullet Diameter .458"

Powder         Bullet             Charge Wt., Velocity Charge Wt    Velocity    Pressure      OAL
X-Terminator 300 SIE HP FN   56.0            2,100     62.0           2,250       38,550      2.550
X-Terminator 350 HDY RN      49.0             1,750     54.0          1,900        39,100      2.550
X-Terminator 500 HDY RN      40.0             1,450     44.0          1,550        38,500      2.550

[quickdtoo]

Those sound good, but you won't get any or much expansion of the Hornady 500gr at velocities below 1300fps, that's why no load is listed for it by Hornady, it will act like an FMJ at the lower velocities, and with the round nose, won't work like a flat nose cast with a wide meplat.

When I got my first 45-70 Handi 6yrs ago, I bought a box of the 500gr Hornadys and looked for load data in the levergun range, I contacted Hornady and asked what the minimum effective velocity would be at levergun pressures, they said it won't work very well at all, so I sold them. Being hard enough to work in the 460 Weatherby at over 2500fps, it's got to be a pretty tough bullet. The only way to know if they'll have decent terminal performance at 1300-1500fps would be to test them.

Tim

[mcwoodduck]

Those sound good, but you won't get any or much expansion of the Hornady 500gr at velocities below 1300fps, that's why no load is listed for it by Hornady, it will act like an FMJ at the lower velocities, and with the round nose, won't work like a flat nose cast with a wide meplat.

When I got my first 45-70 Handi 6yrs ago, I bought a box of the 500gr Hornadys and looked for load data in the levergun range, I contacted Hornady and asked what the minimum effective velocity would be at levergun pressures, they said it won't work very well at all, so I sold them. Being hard enough to work in the 460 Weatherby at over 2500fps, it's got to be a pretty tough bullet. The only way to know if they'll have decent terminal performance at 1300-1500fps would be to test them.

Tim

I hate to sound like a geek here but it is a .458 wide hunk of lead and copper weighting .07142857142 of a pound.  Rounding up almost 3/4 of a tenth of a pound. 437.5 grains = 1 oz so about a 1.143 oz slug.   Even moving at a snails pace 1300 FPS you are still taking about a heavy, wide, and long slug that will just push strait through anything here to hunt.  And if it does not open up at all you still have almost a 1/2" entry and at worst case a .5 exit hole.  Most .30 caliber bullets only open to .5+ of an inch with a .30 caliber entry hole.  Any tissue or bone the front of the .458 bullet pushes through an animal will make a much larger exit hole and a wound canal that will aid in blood loss or pressure loss that will put the animal on the ground quickly.

[44 Man]

You have to remember, without expansion, the hole will be the diameter of the meplat.  On a flat nosed cast bullet that is significant.  On a round nose jacketed, it leaves a smaller, puckered hole, much like hardball out of a .45 auto.  A jacketed bullet that expands imparts much more energy to the target than one that does not.  Most hunting failures are from not matching the bullet to the velocity and the game.  With a flat nose cast bullet, you know it is going to penetrate and leave almost a full caliber hole.  The hard, jacketed bullet will penetrate, but not leave that large hole.  You will have the best results if you use a bullet that is designed to work at the velocities you intend to load to.  44 Man