Author Topic: Will it shoot loose? (Read 1454 times)

Jack Gilbert · « **on:** October 19, 2009, 06:51:19 AM »

All right, here it is. I have a friend at Dreary who claims that screw holes will begin to enlarge, cylinder gap widens, etc. etc. within 40 to 50 rounds out of a Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum. That includes the 629 Classic. He maintains that the Ruger Redhawk/Super Redhawk won't do this. He quotes from some "expert" on this topic.

I maintain that it would be abuse for that to happen. I await your input on this topic, as we've gone around and around on this over the years. He did admit that my old model 41 is one whale of a shooter, though.

The guy at Dreary goes by the moniker CDOC.

Jack

Casull · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2009, 07:27:40 AM »

Well, I've had my 1980's vintage M29 for nearly 30 years now, and I've put somewhere close to 4,000 full power rounds through it. BC gap is still about .005, and the screw holes are not widening. Only thing I have noticed is that what started as a very good trigger pull of probably 3 to 3 1/2 pounds has become an excellent trigger pull of about 1 1/2 to 2 pounds.

watkibe · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2009, 07:33:19 AM »

I have seen something happen much like you describe. I was shooting with a friend, using his Model 29. We were using the moderate targer loads he uses for practical shooting matches. By the time we shot 50 rounds, the gun tied up because screws had started to come loose. Apparently this happened before, and he had to keep an eye on the screws to keep them tight.
Kinda why I like my Ruger, no screws in it to come loose.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2009, 10:53:28 AM »

Please tell your friend he is full of BS and has no clue what he is talking about. No on second thought just tell him I said he is an idiot.

Even prior to the supposed improvements made by S&W they were plenty strong enough. It was mostly the guns from the Bangor Punta days that gave S&W that reputation. Those were some poorly put together guns for sure.

I had an old S&W 29 with 10-5/8" barrel that I ran something in excess of 5000 full tilt max loads thru before I foolishly sold it for more than I had paid for it and it was still shooting tight little groups and likely still is. Since the fellow who bought it was planning to use it in silhouette competition as I did I'd not be surprised if he has fired it more by now than I did. It never shot loose nor has any other I've owned or that have been owned by folks I know personally.

drdougrx · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2009, 01:19:03 PM »

I agree with your friend....the 29 will self destruct in less than 100 rounds and could be very dangerous. Please PM for my address and ask him to send it to me immediately in exchange for a Starbucks gift card worth $10. I promise I'll dispose of it accordingly.

Dee · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2009, 02:12:02 PM »

When you think you have heard them all, you realize you haven't.
Tell your friend that I agree with GB. He really is an idiot.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2009, 01:01:53 AM »

If having trouble with loose screws, put some blue locktight on the thred and it will stop. The J & K frame S&W revolvers will not stand up to full power loads and that was why the L frame came along. But to add to what the others have stated, the S&W N frames and X frames are fine.

IMHO

Old Fart · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:59:19 AM »

You know like others I've had a 629 for years (over 25) with untold fullhouse rounds down the tube. Zero problems. I call B.S. on this.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2009, 07:53:43 AM »

It might depend on what you shoot in it . In some reloading guides there is a section for FA's , ruger's and TC's . If you shoot those loads the bolt hole will be battered , bolt bent and the gun will be ruined . I know this as i shot 6 , 300 gr loads that were max. for the Ruger in a 5in custom DX mod 29 .
This was abuse of the gun plain and simple . So if you are inclined to shoot extra heavy loads the go with a Ruger or such . If you just want and old school ( no cut intended , good trigger and old school craft and finish ) revolver then go S&W . It has been my experince either can produce good groups . Many who shoot the S&W say the Ruger won't shoot as well , I say not so Spend some time learning the Ruger and you can shoot it as well . Look at Glock and learning to shoot it , all guns can be different .
Don't be to hard on your friend , the first to write about the 44mag said it would break arms and hands and make all your children be born naked .

Keith L · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2009, 12:04:59 PM »

Quote from: rawhidekid on October 21, 2009, 01:01:53 AM

The J & K frame S&W revolvers will not stand up to full power loads and that was why the L frame came along.

If you use factory loads, or stay within the limits of the loading manuals the K frame for sure will handle full power loads. My bet is that the J frame will hurt your hand before you hurt the gun if you load it with what it was designed for. If you second guess the manuals and overload them any gun will self destruct. Then it is not the guns fault, but the operator.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2009, 01:48:23 PM »

Quote from: Keith L on October 21, 2009, 12:04:59 PM

Quote from: rawhidekid on October 21, 2009, 01:01:53 AM
The J & K frame S&W revolvers will not stand up to full power loads and that was why the L frame came along.

If you use factory loads, or stay within the limits of the loading manuals the K frame for sure will handle full power loads. My bet is that the J frame will hurt your hand before you hurt the gun if you load it with what it was designed for. If you second guess the manuals and overload them any gun will self destruct. Then it is not the guns fault, but the operator.

I agree... I've put many thousands of full power rounds through K and N frames, and they held up just fine. There ARE a few idiots around that think you have to over load a handgun to shoot it though. I've never believed in that mentality, so i can't tell you how long they will last doing that.

DM

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #11 on:** October 21, 2009, 03:59:43 PM »

Thank you GB

, you make my day and make Jack as happy as he could possibly be.

I told Jack that is about where you would come down on the issue, so you didn't disapoint me at all.

As per being an "idiot", I plead guilty, but I sure have a lot of fun with Jack and his smiths.

One thing about being an "Ol'Coot", it takes more now then in years past to damage my feelings, so in spite of the fact that I am an idiot who loves RUGERS!!!!!!!!!! and Jack is a B&C lover - you know S&W the fruit and vegtable canners, hence B&C or "Bean Can Gun" - keep all the pro B&C info com'in as Jack needs all the help he can get!

Oh by the way folks, no need to send hate mail or hit squads my direction, just keep giv'in Jack and his B&Cs positive strokes and we will all be happy!

Keep em coming!

CDOC (Crusty Deary Ol'Coot)

rawhidekid · « **Reply #12 on:** October 21, 2009, 04:47:33 PM »

I know you guys love the S&W's and I do too, but what I said about the J & K Smith & Wesson, the factory Reps will atest to on the phone. And I am talking factory full loads not reloads. That is why they made the L frame, they got tired of rebuilding the K's.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #13 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:23:42 PM »

Quote from: rawhidekid on October 21, 2009, 04:47:33 PM

I know you guys love the S&W's and I do too, but what I said about the J & K Smith & Wesson, the factory Reps will atest to on the phone. And I am talking factory full loads not reloads. That is why they made the L frame, they got tired of rebuilding the K's.

Some of us have been shooting our S&W's since before many of those factory reps were even born! The truth is, the only full power loads that are hard on a K frame, are full power LIGHT weight bullets, like the 110 grain. They would flame cut the top strap, and as i've never cared for that light of weight bullet in my 357's, i don't shoot them. K frames can stand full power heavier bullet loads, and that's what i shoot in mine.

FULL POWER loads are just that, FULL POWER, handloaded or not!

DM

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:35:32 PM »

I shot thousands upon thousands of full power .357 Magnum loads thru my 6" Model 19s back when full power meant 158s at 1550 fps. Never saw any damage it did. These days I've gone to all SS so rather than M19s I use M66s. I sure don't baby them and use max or near max loads but accuracy is far more important than a few more fps one way or another.

I use the same loads in my S&W 60 3" as I do the M66s as well. Admitedly I don't shoot it as much but it seems to take them in stride just fine.

Dee · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:37:48 AM »

I've shot a couple of Smith 19s out of time training, practicing, and shooting some exhibition, but a newly fitted cylinder hand, and later on a newly fitted oversize cylinder stop, some more shooting, and they were ready for trade.
Mostly I was shooting very light 38 special with cast bullets, but they got more than their share of hot 125 grain jacketed hollow points also.
On many occasions I have fired a thousand rounds in one day, with never a hitch, and these were K frames. As far as what the factory says, they would prefer that you never fired them, and just bought another one. They will never tell you to shoot hot loads in their pistols. At least they didn't used to.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2009, 05:55:49 AM »

I am sure everyone on this sight is stating thier experiance and are correct for thier guns. I was speaking from three years working for a gunsmith and sending other peoples K & J frame revolvers to S&W for repair. I have read the letters from S&W to the customers telling them that thier revolvers could not stand up to a heavy diet of hot loads. If you guys think they made the L frame just for something to do, go right ahead. The L frame fits the same holsters as the K frame and you can shoot the hottest loads all day. Have a good day, as I am through with this topic.

Keith L · « **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:38:21 PM »

There are lots of folks that load their own "Hot" loads that are the recommended loads plus some. If they are lucky all that happens is their guns shoot loose. If they are not so lucky their guns come apart on them. Of course when sending them back to the factory for repair all that have been used is mild loads.

Dee · « **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:16:08 PM »

Well actually rawhide, I carried both the L frames and the K frames for a living, and although you can drop most K frames into an L frame holster they are a pretty loose fit, and you won't be CRAMIN many L frame Smiths into a QUALITY K frame holster, because they aren't the same. The cylinder size isn't the same, nor in most cases the barrel configuration. And while you worked for a gunsmith, I AM a gunsmith. If your employer was a gunsmith, why did he ship them to S&W? Why didn't he fix them himself?

rawhidekid · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2009, 07:52:54 PM »

Many of the older Smiths had lifetime warranties. But what am I saying , your a smith so you know that.

Dee · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2009, 01:27:32 AM »

The only lifetime warranties I remember were for WORKMANSHIP flaws. Not for shooting hot loads. Not to argue, but please enlighten me.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2009, 03:16:01 AM »

I have heard that some shooters liked the colt trooper because it was a bit larger than the 19 , the size and weight gave them more control . This along with the steady use of mag loads pushed S&W into making the L frame .
Funny thing is it wasn't out long before the "WONDER 9 " showed up .

rawhidekid · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2009, 05:18:48 AM »

Shooting loose from hot loads was considered a flaw in workmanship/design. The shop I worked for originally had four gunsmiths and was a warranty repair station for almost all american makes. Unfortionatly the owner fell on some ruff times under Clinton and was forced to sell out. The new owner was too cheap to send his smith's to the factory for recertification and warranty service was lost. We then had to send all warranty back to the factory. Prior to I believe 1995/6 The Smith & Wesson revolvers were warrantied pretty much for any defect until they were sold to the same effect. As for the tight quality holters all that you need do is soak the holster in water, place the handgun in a plastic bag and leave the gun in the holster overnight. I usally apply mink oil to the holster the next night, letting it dry without the handgun. To sum up I really worked for a gun shop/gunsmith and I really read the REAL letters from S&W about this topic, if none of you believe it; is no skin-off-my-nose. Again, have a nice day.

Dee · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2009, 06:15:33 AM »

I know about refitting holsters with water, I also make holsters, but you indicated that they were the same, not that they had to be altered.

Mohawk · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2009, 11:53:53 AM »

I used to religiously run my 19 with .357 158gr. SWC's at 1550 fps without a problem before my handloader quit making ammo. I did have a Model 10 go out of time but a quick and cheap hand replacement solved the problem, but this gun was over 40 years old and had seen an untold number of rounds (ex-range gun). Your friend's opinion sounds like gun shop gossip. I often rented Glocks to tourists and they were stunned that Glocks actually could jam. Mostly it was due to a weak mag spring. But they had "always heard" across the pond that Glocks were full-proof.