Hammer Forged Barrels

[quickdtoo]

H&R/Marlin/Remington has decide to delay the hammer forged barrel operation until next year, they will continue with button rifled Marlin made barrels until 2010 when they make the change.

Tim

[Hodr]

Okay I can easily admit ignorance and bribe for help..What is the difference in process and why does it matter?

An answer I can understand gets you an invite to my place for all the coffe you can drink and a big  plate of my wife's hot choclate chip cookies.

If we get along well, I will throw in chicken fried steak, home fries, hot biscuits, homemade gravy (made with my sausage), and eggs any way you like them.

bribery is a fast disappearing art form.

blindhari

[trotterlg]

Not sure this would be a step up in quality, it would make the barrels cheaper to produce however.  There are lots of production rifles with hammer forged barrels, but I don't believe I have ever seen a bench rest competition in which one placed in the top 10.  It would also be interesting to know what kind of rifleing they will put in them, could end up with polygonal which would spell the end of shooting cast bullets in them.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

They'll be making Marlin barrels as well, probably Remington too, but I didn't ask about Remington firearms specifically. CZ uses hammer forged barrels, I think Tikka/Sako are too, but I don't know that for sure.

Tim

http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Precision%20Shooting%20Magazine%20-%20November-%202005%20(Vol_%2053%20-%20No_%207).htm

[Hodr]

Ok, Ok,  I give.  I am still confused by difference between "hammer forge" and "button rifle".  Now I have somebody throw in "polygonal".  I was an armorer for the US Army and can remember some from the 1960's.  Right now though i feel like I did when I walked in Starbucks and was asked if I wanted 2 shot amaretto double caff vente grande.  All I was looking for was a cuppa coffee.  Simple terms please. Technical is great and all that but I am forced to assume hammer forging and button rifiling are not closely related but polygonal and button rifiling might be first cousins.  Like i said for coffee and hot choclate chip cookies apply the KISS principle and assume I am Obama Grade weapons manufacture ignorant.

blindhari

[quickdtoo]

Click the link, it explains in detail how hammer forged barrels are made, it starts at The Hammer Forging Process....
Basically they start with a fat rod of steel, drill a hole thru it lengthwise that's 20% larger than the finished bore, then insert a mandrel that is a reverse image of the finished rifled bore, then hammer the heck out of the steel until the steel forms tightly around the mandrel.


Tim

The mandrel

[LaOtto222]

Ahh - the merits of hammer forging. My personal take on hammer forging - I think that a hammer forged barrel beats a production button rifled barrel. A hammer forged barrel is quicker to produce, gives a more uniform result and makes the barrel tougher due to the hammering process. The guy running the forge has to know what he is doing to get good results or all you get is either scrap or poor quality barrels. Ruger had many quality problems when they were buying their barrels from many different sources, most of which were button rifled. Their reputation for accuracy was hurt considerably. One rifle could shoot very well and the next there was no hope for. This hurt Ruger's reputation for accuracy considerably one that is still haunting them. When they invested in a hammer forge, their barrel quality improved and restored their reputation for accuracy some what. The hammer forges are expensive however; only the big boys can afford to buy them. Remington for instance has been hammer forging their barrels for a lot of years and they generally get good results in the accuracy department. Will a hammer forged barrel compete with a custom button rifled barrel - not likely. Companies that specialize in accuracy barrels take great pains to produce a perfect barrel. They have very high quality control in every step of the process from drilling straight, smooth holes to air gauging and in many cases hand lapping barrels. That results in a very high quality barrel. You pay for this quality in many cases they cost $400 and up, just for the barrel. It is an expense that gun manufacturers just can not afford to pay. Hammer forging over comes many of these problems of holes that are not straight and or uniform and a rough drilling and button process. When a hammer forged barrel is done right, it will have a smoother, straighter bore that a typical production button rifled barrel. Personally, I think that when Remington gets the hammer forge up and running, we are going to find a better quality barrel over all. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[petemi]

Thanks guys, for the education.

Pete

[Chas.]

For those that are not familiar with the different methods of rifling (like me) here's what I found that describes each.

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_bulletIDrifling.htm

[Brithunter]

  Well I followed the link and those reading it and believing it all will be sadly mislead. It's quite inaccurate in a lot of ways. It infers that what they call "Polygonal rifling" is new ................... it's not it fact the Henry form and Metford form rifling was of a polygonal type and they were in use in the 1880's. Hammer forging is also not new the German MG34's used it as the Hammer forging also increases the surface hardness of the bore and so made the rifling last a bit longer as the MG 34 had a very fast rate of fire and ate normal rifled barrels.

In hammer forging the barrel blank is bored and reamed to a constant size and smooth finish then the hardened mandral (often carbide or Stelite) is inserted and the blank and mandral enters the hammer forge. Both BSA and Parker-Hale used Rotary Hammer forges. The second one at Parker-Hale they built themselves neither P-H not BSA had polygonal rifling. BSA used the fllowing rifling patterns:-

6 groove 1 in 14 RH twist for .222 Rem, .223 Win and .22-250 Rem
6 Groove 1 in 10 LH twist for .243 Win
4 Groove 1 in 8.66" RH twist for 6.5x55
4 Groove 1 in 14 RH twist for 7.62x51 Nato
5 groove 1 in 10 LH twist for all other calibres and chamberings (which is basically Enfield form rifling).

I do not have the information to as the P-H twist rates but they also from my observations I have looked at the following P-H rifles .22-250, .243,6mm Rem, .270, .308, .30-06, 308 Norma magnum, ,375 H&H and .458 Win mag and all have the normal form land and groove  .

It's also interesting to note that before BSA used the hammer forge their barrels were cut rifled and hand lapped. I only wish i knew exactly when the hammer forge came into oeration and if it completly replaced the cut rifled barrels or did they produce both at the same time? rememebr that BSA were also producing barrels for their Air Rifle line up which was an important part of the sales worldwide.

[Hodr]

Well I have a better understanding.  I thank you all.  I live in central Arizona near Prescott.  Coffee and cookies at my place for whoever stops by.  PM me for address and when home.  In addition to my wife's choclate chip cookies I will throw in some that I make,  Grandpa Jones All Time Best Oatmeal cookies.  I worked beside Dave Jones a Louisiana man and retired Army food services Chief Warrant.  His cookies are lumpy good with raisins and walnuts.  Over the years I have taught a lot of scouts how to make those cookies.  They come out big enough to feed the hollow leg you find in most kids.

Thank you again,

blindhari

Recipe available