Author Topic: My second batch of BPCF cart loads, cirtique please. (Read 1512 times)

JBMauser · « **on:** August 16, 2003, 01:03:42 PM »

The first time I did this I did not compress and did not load much powder. There is what I did for my second run at this. These are 45/70 shortened to 2.1 in. for the Danish rolling block. This time I dropped 65 and 70 grains of goex over magmum pistol primers. I used a 14in. drop tube attached to a funnel and poured the powder slowly from 6 inches above. The 70gr filled the case to the brim. I pushed a felt lubed wad down over the powder and used my case 45LC bell die as a ram to crunch the powder down slowley in steps. I buttered the bottom of the bullet with some lube made of bees wax and STp (I know I need to make up the crisco mixture) and seated the bullet. I did not use a wax paper wat over the powder this time. What do you think? This is a 340gr. cast bullet load. Thanks in advance for you comments and opinions. JB

John Traveler · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2003, 05:53:14 PM »

Your load sounds good to me.

What diameter bullet are you using? I've heard (and examined a couple) that Danish rolling blocks tend to have groove diameters on the large side of standard .45 caliber.

Is yours a hollow-base bullet? With extra-deep lube grooves, or standard?

JBMauser · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2003, 06:23:19 AM »

They are plain flat based and .459 dia. This is the best dia. as recomended by others. I only have a few left. I need to order the Lee 405 gr. hb mold many have recomeded for the Dane. thanks for the heads up. JB

Omaha Poke · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2003, 01:43:30 PM »

JB, the question is not what we think, but what do you think of the load after shooting it? One question, if you are lubing your bullets, and using a lubed felt wad, why are you lubing the base of the bullet? Omaha Poke

JBMauser · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2003, 03:33:14 AM »

I wanted to ask before I shot them as I know they will go boom ok but I have pulled bullets apart before to adjust. I put a glob of lube under the bullet as I had read where it was done and the lube was forced up and around the bullet. I am useing commercial cast pills now. They have one lube groove filled with that blue hard crayola lube (blue angel?) which I carve out and apply my sticky soft lube. The felt wads I have are very old and look dry on inspection. Under compression they look moist like they still hold wax and God knows what else. I hope to fire these soon. I guess my concern had to do with not putting in a vapor barrier of sorts over the powder like wax paper or paper from a milk container. My gut tells me that the felt pad and my lube could leech into the BP and kill some or all of it. Granted this may take some time but I am new to this. The element of time with a front stuffer is nill as it never sits loaded very long. Now, a cartridge, that is another matter. My plan from here is to go a Paper patched bullet and I need to understand how to keep a lube ball or wad from soaking into the paper and destroying it's integrity. JB

Omaha Poke · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2003, 03:31:12 PM »

JB, it is good to replace the hard lube with a BP lube, however I wouldn't put a grease cookie directly in contact with the base of the bullet. The lube will stick in an uneven manner, and accuracy will most likely suffer because of this. Put a thin wax paper or other non-absorbent material over the powder, then the grease cookie, and then another non-absorbent wad, then the bullet.

Go ahead and shoot those you have already loaded, then try the method above and see what the difference in accuracy, velocity, etc., really is. Good Luck with you load developement. Omaha

The Shrink · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2003, 01:59:46 AM »

JB

The only thing I would change is the use of a hard over powder wad, either veggie fiber or poly (milk jug or such). This will act as a seal much better than wax paper. Put a newsprint or wax paper wad on the base of the bullet so that nothing else will stick to it as it goes downrange.

JBMauser · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2003, 04:02:54 AM »

So what I think you are all saying is, lube the side of the bullet for bore lube, keep the base dry and protected to fly clean and unincombered and create a lube area ahead of the powder that will not disturb or bump the bullet but will disperse a mist (smokey as it may be) of lube to keep fouling soft. If I understand this properly lube is applied to two different but related functions or phases of the event. Is this correct? JB

Coydog C. · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2003, 09:13:27 AM »

JB,

If youre using a properly designed BPCR bullet, (not a Paper Patched bullet either), and youre using a blow tube, the additional lube cookie will be unnecessary. Also, the 45-70 hasnt got a whole lot of capacity to begin with. IF youre having fouling problems its most likely due to that little 340 grain either not carrying enough lube, and/or being too light to build up sufficient pressure to burn cleanly.

If you do want to use a lube cookie (I know some CAS guys like them), then you need do a little math to add the thickness of your grease cookie. IE:

If your OAL calls for a bullet seating depth of .650 then you need to add the thickness of your cookie, and an additional wad. It should go:

Powder, Wad, Grease Cookie, Wad, Bullet.

To tell you the truth, I dont mess with cookies because they add a whole other variable thats hard to control. The less stuff that goes into the case the better. I dont think Ive met anyone yet that competes and uses them.

Chuck

PS: I go to great lengths to clean the bases of my bullets off prior to loading. Some guys even use a newspaper wad between the bullet and their LDPE wad, just to prevent the wad from sticking to the bullet and creating a flyer.

JBMauser · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2003, 11:08:03 AM »

Chuck, you shoot with one wad to protect the bullet base from the combusting powder and lube the bullet only and you use a blow tube to add humidity to the barrel fouling between shots? This would be the best plan for the Dane as it is shorter than the 45/70. What is this LDPE ?? wad you spoke of? Is this the vegie wad I hear others recomend? JB

Coydog C. · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2003, 03:36:43 PM »

JB

Quote

you shoot with one wad to protect the bullet base from the combusting powder and lube the bullet only and you use a blow tube to add humidity to the barrel fouling between shots?

Yup, that's about it.

LDPE is low Density Plastic, like the stuff coffee can lids are made out of. I also use Veggie wads for some Goex loads, but Swiss seems to like LDPE better.

Chuck

JBMauser · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2003, 11:05:51 AM »

Well they all went boom as predicted and the results were poor as hinted at in your posts. My test firings with Unique and no wad or lube at the base of the bullet gave heartening results. 5 shots in 4 1/8 circle at 100 yards with one flyer. These were from fire formed brass. the same load in new unformed brass did not group as tight. BP shot higher as it had more umph.. but all over as the mess I had under the bullet no dooubt did me wrong. I will try again with less lube, wads et all and try again. Thanks for all your help. The Dane shows promise! JB

JBMauser · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2003, 11:09:14 AM »

I did not add that I did not use a blow tube. I need to learn a new sequence. I load shoot, look pause, write load sight and shoot. I need to put "Huff" amd "Puff" and wait then load. and fire. JB

Coydog C. · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2003, 11:36:18 AM »

JB,

Proper blow tube use is critical for fouling control and accuracy if you want to shoot "dirty" (not cleaning between rounds).

I think that once you get a "proper" BPCR bullet, a blow tube and learn how to use it, you'll see a marked improvement.

Chuck

The Shrink · « **Reply #14 on:** August 25, 2003, 01:14:52 AM »

Coydog

I'm of the opinion, not unique to me, that the use of the blowtube is strongly dependent on atmospheric conditions. I woas out Sat. with a Trapdoor and put eight shots in a 8" bull at 100 yds with no blow-tube. Of course, it was close to 98% humidity!

Coydog C. · « **Reply #15 on:** August 25, 2003, 01:51:05 AM »

Wayne,

I've got to tell you that IMHO 8 shots into 8 inches at 100 yards isn't exactly what I'd call impressive. It may be "OK" for battelfield type accuracy, or minute of buffalo, but it's pretty poor for the target range.

If I can't get 1-1.25 MOA at 100 then something is wrong. My lastest load testing with my .40 had some sub 1" groups for 5 shots, and most 10 shot groups held at under 1.5 MOA.

Now, if you can shoot 1.5 to 2 MOA at 200 yards and beyond without blowtubing or cleaning between shots that's something to write home about.

I'd check out any sihouette match and try to catch a shooter not using a blow tube. He might well be the only guy there thats cleaning between shots.

Chuck

The Shrink · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2003, 02:00:05 AM »

Aw, Chuck, I was shooting an original Trapdoor, not a target rifle. And I misremembered, it was a 5.5" bull, not an 8", so those went into 6". 'sides, I was looking through the top of my bifocals, the sights were just a blur to me.

Felt ral good, after the shotgun patterns I had been getting!

I agree, totally inadequate for a target/silouette rifle. (OK, so I can't spell in French!)

casulman454 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 01, 2003, 10:14:28 AM »

Hey this is really good stuff. keep it up because i'm trying to learn the same stuff as a newbie to BP loading and shooting and you are really giving me something to think about. Thanks all of you guys.

The Shrink · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2003, 11:21:39 AM »

Welcome Casulman454

Don't hesitate to generate your own questions, somebody will be along to answer them. Just remember, free advise is just as good as it cost's you! :-) I did the same thing on Shooters.com when I was learning, and am now passing on what I learned there and much of it I have confirmed myself. Those like rdnck and Coydog who shoot much more than I can are the most reliable informers. If my advise disagrees with theirs, ignore mine!

casulman454 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 02, 2003, 11:56:14 AM »

An old guy at the range told me to use the blow tube just before I shoot. he asid I wanted the fouling to be soft at the shot and if I used the tube and then futzed around writing down data and getting ready to load and shoot that the moisture would have evaporated and the fouling would be hard again by that time. It sounded like good advice to me so what do you guys think? When do you use the blow tube? The old guy also said to use clear tubing so that I could see if condensation was forming in the tube and if so to shorten the tube because I wanted the moisture in the barrel and not in the tube. That also sounds like good advice. Waht do you think?

Sorry to be so dumb here but all of this stuff is new to me and its nothing like loading the smokeless powders that I'm comfortable with.

The Shrink · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2003, 01:38:19 AM »

If you're shooting long range, or if you're shooting competitively, it's good advise. He's absolutely right, you want the fouling soft and you want conditions in your barrel as close to the same for each shot. Your pace of shooting then dictates when you blowtube.

On the other hand, if you're loading for hunting, you are more interested in where the first shot is going (fouling shot) because that's the one that will count. You then need to know how far off the second and third shots will be from that mark in case you need a follow-up shot. No blow tubing here!

When working up a load for accuracy, follow the range rules - blow tube and the works. If you're gonna use that load for hunting, then determine your relative points of impact.

Note: for most hunting ranges, 50-150 yds. there won't be a huge difference between the initial impact point and the follow-up impact point. You need to know how your rifle throws, especially if you're taking shots @ 150 yds.

casulman454 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2003, 05:12:03 AM »

Wayne

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

Keep it coming guys. I'm learning here.

JWINKS · « **Reply #22 on:** September 11, 2003, 12:54:00 PM »

I'm curious about the statement made about 'filling the case to the brim" with 70 grns of powder. I drop Elephant FFG 18" and can get just slightly over 77 grns ( by weight ) in a case trimmed to 2.1". What's going on here? Is Elephant that much different? Jim W.

The Shrink · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2003, 01:32:18 AM »

Jim

Specific to the 45-70 case, the easiest and simplest way to "measure" the powder is to simply scoop a case full, compress appropriately, add your wad and bullet. You will be very close (probably slightly under) 70 gr. of powder. It's the only case I know that you can do this with, but there may be others.

Of course, most of us want at least the appearance of more precision.

wills · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2003, 03:55:04 PM »

You might consider a longer drop tube; most I have heard of are at least 24" (yes Wayne I did get it built). Try non magnum primers, many people consider magnum un-nessecary. Also, have you got a copy of Dick Trenk's article, or one of Croft Barker's books?

JBMauser · « **Reply #25 on:** September 13, 2003, 08:32:20 AM »

Willis, I do not have the article you cited nor any books on BPCR. The Black powder books I bought, bothe lyman and Nont's are strictly for front stuffers. Is this article availabe for download from somewhare? Any info would be appreciated. JB PS. I will lengthen my drop tube, I made due with the tube I had on hand.

wills · « **Reply #26 on:** September 13, 2003, 03:56:22 PM »

Dick Trenk will e mail the article to you;
The BP Cartridge Rifle Reloading Guide
Written by Dick Trenk (Competition Events Coordinator, Davide Pedersoli & Co.)

He posts on Alterfurtz’s BPCR group
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR

go to the messages
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/messages.msnw

Or, he e-mailed me a copy and I dont want to post his e mail, but if you will contact me at my “throw down” e-mail address wills1871 @ hotmail . com (leave out the spaces) I will forward the article or send you his address by “real” e mail

Croft Barker has written several books. The one I have is The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook, pubished by Cistern Publishing Company, 14010 State Highway 95 North, Flatonia, Texas 78941