Rifled choke tubes?????

[Diesel40]

Do any of you shoot a smooth bore gun with a rifled choke tube?  If so what is your experiance with it?  are they accurate?  Thanks for your help.  good luck this season

[Graybeard]

In my experience they greatly improve the accuracy of foster type slugs in smooth bore barrels but they are far less accurate than fully rifled barrels for sabot slugs.

[muskeg13]

I couldn't keep foster slugs on a full sized sheet of 8.5x11 paper at 50 yards until I installed a rifled choke tube.  The groups immediately went to less than 3" on a consistent basis.  I can also get 2''-3" at 50 yards with Federal Power Shock sabot slugs.  I only used this one brand, because they were the cheapest, and I want a 1oz or more slug in bear country.

In addition to the rifled choke tube, you'll need more precise sights than just the standard brass beads on the ventilated rib.  I still use the front bead, but have added a Redding (peep) sight on the receiver.

Bottom line (for me) is the rifled tube offers a huge improvement in accuracy for little money, and I can quickly switch choke tubes in the field.

[Huntsman1]

I'm shooting Winchester 1oz Foster slugs outta my Win. 1200 deer barrel with a Carlsons screw in RCT.
At 50yds I get all holes touching (2" spread). I also installed some Tru-Glo sights which helps too.
My suggestion would be to only use Foster, Rem. Buckhammer, Brenneke type slugs with a RCT, save sabot slugs for fully rifled barrels 

[Don Gordon]

diesel,
    I have to disagree with GB on this.  They can be every bit as accurate as fully rifled barrels if everything is kept equal.   That is- That you are comparing a Cantilever scoped choke barrel with a extended rifled choke tube to a Cantilever scoped fully-rifled barrel, using the same magnification.   

Typically a screw-in type choke is normally found on VR barrels and sometimes Rifle sighted barrels and scope setups use straddle-type scope mounts that use the trigger group pins to mount the scopes.  This is an improvement over smoothbores, but is not optimum.  You need to compare Apples to Apples.

   I have seen first hand R&D test data using both types of systems with solid threaded barrels to receivers.  The extended rifled choke tubed guns actually shot slightly better than the fully rifled barrels over a variety of sabot slugs.   Not all shot better, but the larger percentage did.  Using this data, the company introduced both types of products...     GUESS WHAT???   The fully rifled barrels out-sold the threaded barrels 5-to-1 despite all the advantages.   BECAUSE:  It was the perception that fully-rifled barrels were better than a 4" rifled choke, not anything performance wise.

The advantages of a rifled choke system are:

 1) Much easier to clean the plastic sabot fouling from the lands and grooves.   Some sabots foul badly in that after 10 shots accuracy begins to fail.  It's much easier to unscrew the choke to clean it, than cleaning 20+ inches of rifled barrels.

 2) Can replace tube with a tight full choke for Turkey hunting.

3) Can use lower cost foster slugs and IC choke to get sighted in on paper, before swiitching to fully rifled tube and more Expensive Sabot slugs.

4) Can use standard chokes for Buckshot for home defense or Deer hunting where legal.

The disadvantages are:  Nearly impossible to find a barrel with a screw-in choke and a cantilever scope mount.

I own both types of barrels and cannot see any performance differance due to the choke.

[Huntsman1]

Unless you've tested every rct, cantilever barrel make(smooth or fully rifled), every make of slug whether sabot or foster you won't always get the same results. I think the question was, "Do any of you shoot a smooth bore gun with a rifled choke tube?  If so what is your experiance with it?  are they accurate?"
I've already stated my results and my answer was yes they are accurate.

[Don Gordon]

Huntsman,
   Maybe I am reading your post wrong, but it seems you're directing it at me. (I think ).

  The original poster asked if they were accurate.   "Accurate" is a relative term   Accurate as compared to what??    PiePlates?  Popcans??  Minute of Deer??  50 yards or 150 yards?

My post was in response to GreyBeards in which he wrote.  "In my experience they greatly improve the accuracy of foster type slugs in smooth bore barrels but they are far less accurate than fully rifled barrels for sabot slugs." 

"Far less Accurate" is still a relative term.   Are they 50% less accurate?   4" groups rather than 2" groups?


In my experience and in testing done by a well-equipped R&D facility they are as accurate as rifled barrels when all other variables (scopes, mounts, slugs, cleaning intervals, triggers, temperature, etc) are constant.   

So I think we are in agreement that rifled chokes can be as accurate as rifled barrels.





 

   




 

[Huntsman1]

I agree, I musta read too much into it 

[vabowhntr]

I have an extended rct on my 870 with an 18.5 in barrel I had threaded for choke tubes.  With hastings LR and regular 2.75" slugs I can put 3 shots into the box they came in at 75 yards.  The LR version is a little better but runs out of energy about that distance.  I have killed deer out to about 80 yards with this combo, which is scoped with a 4x scope in a weaver side saddle.  I have not shot it much past 75 and would not feel comfortable past 90-100 yards with it.

[JimFromTN]

Has anyone tried the hastings 6 inch rifled choke tubes?  They are kind of pricey.  I think they are around $70.

As far as whether choke tubes are as accurate as rifled barrels, I think it is an industry wide forgone conclusion that a fully rifled barrel is going to be more accurate than a rifled choke tube.  The last couple of inches are the most important but the rifleing up to that point does help stabilize the slug otherwise why would you bother rifling more than the last 3 inches on any barrel whether it be a rifle or shotgun.

[Varmint Hunter]

It  would seem to me that a choke tube rifle would allow the slug to achieve maximum velocity BEFORE it slams into the rifling. Thus causing some degree of change to the physical characteristics of the slug. I would also assume that fouling would be significant at the beginning of the tube.

Neither of these concerns would exist in a fully rifled barrel.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Don Gordon]

As far as whether choke tubes are as accurate as rifled barrels, I think it is an industry wide forgone conclusion that a fully rifled barrel is going to be more accurate than a rifled choke tube.  The last couple of inches are the most important but the rifleing up to that point does help stabilize the slug otherwise why would you bother rifling more than the last 3 inches on any barrel whether it be a rifle or shotgun.

Haaaaaa.   "industry wide forgone conclusion ".   It's the perception that a fully rifled barrel is more accurate: It is not born out in actual testing.  Repeat something long enough and it becomes true??

 Everyone "thinks" it is logical that a fully rifled barrel should shoot better than a fully rifled choke tube, but they never, ever shoot them under lab conditions because it is a forgone conclusion.  (without any data to back it up).   I've seen test results from lab condition tests that show they are every bit as accurate as the fully rifled versions of the same gun, same scope, same loads.

As far as bothering to rifle the whole barrel rather than the last 3 inches on any barrel:

     1) I imagine that the results might not be the same with copper jacketed bullets at 2400fps+, unless someone actually tests it.

     2) It would cost more to rifle a small portion of the barrel rather than the whole bore.

I really don't care what you shoot or what you believe, but don't repeat an assumption based on prejudice.

[Don Gordon]

It  would seem to me that a choke tube rifle would allow the slug to achieve maximum velocity BEFORE it slams into the rifling. Thus causing some degree of change to the physical characteristics of the slug. I would also assume that fouling would be significant at the beginning of the tube.

Neither of these concerns would exist in a fully rifled barrel.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

VH,   
   I am not sure that the difference in velocity at the forcing cone on a fully rifled barrel  versus the velocity at the leading edge of the choke tube is more than 10%;  In any case is there any evidence that this would affect accuracy? 

   I am sure that regardless of using a fully rifled barrel or rifled choke barrel, that there will be a change in the physical characteristics of the slug.
Whether the slug is stabilized in the first 3" of the barrel or the last 3" of the barrel doesn't really make a difference as long as the slug is stablized.

   In my experience with both Fully rifled barrels and rifled choke tubes that the plastic sabot fouling is heaviest closest to the muzzle.  I can only guess that this is because the velocity is highest at the muzzle and that the friction heat from the bore is softening the sabot, which leads to more deposits.  Who Knows??    I haven't found much plastic fouling at the bore end of the choke tube.
 
   I can assure you that it is much easier to clean a rifled choke than a fully rifled barrel.   

  It seems the common thread among "Rifled Choke Non-believers" is that they are concerned with what's happening inside the barrel and develop "theories" to explain what should be happening.    We can only guess what's going on inside the barrel, but we can observe what happens at the target.  What really matters is what happens at the target.
 

 

[dougk]

In my experience they greatly improve the accuracy of foster type slugs in smooth bore barrels but they are far less accurate than fully rifled barrels for sabot slugs.

I agree with Graybeard on this one..  I used a rifled choke on a Baikal IZH-94 which spoiled me on slugs in smooth bores.

[JimFromTN]

The rifled choke tube will improve accuracy.  You can shoot slugs out of them that are intended for rifled barrels.  The slower slugs will be more accurate out of a rifled choke tube.  Foster type slugs are typically slower so you will see improvement with them.  For these reasons, I would keep your distances to 75 yds or less.

I don't agree with some of the things mentioned above.  Making all things equal as for optics and cantelevered barrels, high velocity slugs like a hornaday or accutip will not be very accurate out of a choke tube vs a rifled barrel.  I might change my mind if Don can post some white papers on the subject or some authority other than himself.  This is a silly arguement anyhow.  Who makes a cantelevered shotgun barrel with removable chokes?  Who would want one and why?  A person who gets a rifled choke is either not going to add any optics or use a less than reliable system like a saddle mount or magnetic rifled sights vs someone who invests in a cantelevered rifled slug barrel and scope.  My point is that it will never be equal so its a mute point even if there was some truth to it.

[Don Gordon]

Jim,

   I don't agree with some of the things you mentioned above.   There, now we're even.

Here are 3 Links to Guns on Gunbroker that are cantilvered scope mount, choked, and monte carlo stocked.   All of these would make excellent Slug guns with a fully rifled tube, and as a side benefit a Turkey gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=123462867
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=123476234
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=122958339#PIC

In addition, the Browning ABolt  and Gold Semi-auto shotguns were available in both fully rifled versions as well as rifled choke tube versions.

The Winchester 1300 series was available as a Buck & Tom Special that was drilled and tapped for scopes, had a MC stock, and came with a rifled tube, an IC tube, and a Turkey extra full.

And if a buyer had his choice of a fully rifled barrel with sights, versus one that was rifled choked with sights, the accuracy expected should be the same.

My experience with Fully Rifled Barrels and Rifled Choke tube barrels and the testing I referenced was when I worked for Browning.  The testing for the Browning ABolt shotguns involved at least 3 of each version, and thousands of rounds of all the various slugs currently on the market, including Sabots.  These guns of course had rifle triggers and D&T scope mounts with screwed on barrels.     After all the testing (and cleaning), the Rifled tubes were statistically more accurate, but only by a small fraction.   They were also easier to clean.   

All of this information was presented to the Sales Reps at the annual Sales Meeting so that when it came to write orders, the Dealers who had territories that overlapped Deer SLug areas and Turkey areas could sell the choked version as an effective crossover.  Especially since the ABolt Shotgun was $$$$ above anything else on the market.     

Well, despite having the testing that showed that the Rifled Choke tubes were just as accurate, the pre-conceived PERCEPTION held by shooters such as yourself did little for sales.   Because in Marketing, it's doesn't matter if you have a better  preforming product, it's the perception that you have a better product that results in sales. Damn the facts.

I think that Forums can be important for people to find out what works and what doesn't.  I think there is some very good information out there, but there is also alot of opinion and theory without any basis or experienced.    It's too bad, because alot of product out there that actually works, doesn't make it because of closed minds.

 

[JimFromTN]

There sure are allot of "was"s and "were"s in there.  Like I said, who would want one and why.  Nobody, which is why no one makes them anymore.  Silly arguement.  Moot point.  Rifled chokes are for those who don't have the money to invest in a new rifled barrel or a new dedicated slug gun.  Anyone who buys one and slaps it in a vr barrel and puts a saddle mount scope on their shotgun will improve the accuracy.  It will not be that of a rifled barrel or a dedicated slug gun with a fixed rifled barrel.  This is the reality for the typical hunter who is trying to invest the little money they have for the sport wisely.  If you have $2000 laying around then go out and buy an abolt with removable choke tubes and 2 sets of qr mounts and a red dot scope for turkey and a shotgun scope for deer.  Don't count on being able to shoot the faster slugs like the accutip and the hornadays and don't expect the effective range to be much beyond 75 yds.  I don't know that they had slugs that were 1800 plus fps back in the olden days when they were still making the abolt with the removable chokes so I don't know that they could have tested them.

[Don Gordon]

There sure are allot of "was"s and "were"s in there.  Like I said, who would want one and why.  Nobody, which is why no one makes them anymore.  

   Yeah,   I been there done that.     Sounds like you have some experience with Rifled Barrels.  What is your actual experience with fully rifled tubes in cantilevered barrels with any type of slug?    I thought so.    

   There are quite a few companies making rifled barrels with rifled sights, and  also offering rifled barrels with choke tubes.  In this case, the  rifled choked barrel with sights will be just as accurate as someone shooting a fully rifled barrel with sights. 

I'll state it again, as you must have missed it.  The advantages of a rifled choke system are:

 1) Much easier to clean the plastic sabot fouling from the lands and grooves.   Some sabots foul badly in that after 10 shots accuracy begins to fail.  It's much easier to unscrew the choke to clean it, than cleaning 20+ inches of rifled barrels.

 2) Can replace tube with a tight full choke for Turkey hunting.

3) Can use lower cost foster slugs and IC choke to get sighted in on paper, before swiitching to fully rifled tube and more Expensive Sabot slugs.

4) Can use standard chokes for Buckshot for home defense or Deer hunting where legal.

It may be a moot point in that no one offers a cantilever choke barrel today but that doesn't mean that they aren't just as accurate. (Which was the point of the whole thread anyway).   There seems to be a few older ones still in circulation  that a buyer can pick up on GunBroker.

Jim,

   You definitely have proven the point about "preception being reality".

 



 

 

 
   

[jjas]

Don,

I find it very interesting that you worked for Browning and these are the results of testing.  For years we've all heard that fully rifled barrels were the only way to take advantage of saboted ammo and that rifled choke tubes were a marginal substitute @ best. 

Can you comment as to what brand, velocity, weights of the slugs tested, as well as the  length and twist rate of the Browning choke tubes?   

Thanks,

jjas



 

 

 
   

[JimFromTN]

There sure are allot of "was"s and "were"s in there.  Like I said, who would want one and why.  Nobody, which is why no one makes them anymore.  

   Yeah,   I been there done that.     Sounds like you have some experience with Rifled Barrels.  What is your actual experience with fully rifled tubes in cantilevered barrels with any type of slug?    I thought so.    

   There are quite a few companies making rifled barrels with rifled sights, and  also offering rifled barrels with choke tubes.  In this case, the  rifled choked barrel with sights will be just as accurate as someone shooting a fully rifled barrel with sights. 

I'll state it again, as you must have missed it.  The advantages of a rifled choke system are:

 1) Much easier to clean the plastic sabot fouling from the lands and grooves.   Some sabots foul badly in that after 10 shots accuracy begins to fail.  It's much easier to unscrew the choke to clean it, than cleaning 20+ inches of rifled barrels.

 2) Can replace tube with a tight full choke for Turkey hunting.

3) Can use lower cost foster slugs and IC choke to get sighted in on paper, before swiitching to fully rifled tube and more Expensive Sabot slugs.

4) Can use standard chokes for Buckshot for home defense or Deer hunting where legal.

It may be a moot point in that no one offers a cantilever choke barrel today but that doesn't mean that they aren't just as accurate. (Which was the point of the whole thread anyway).   There seems to be a few older ones still in circulation  that a buyer can pick up on GunBroker.

Jim,

   You definitely have proven the point about "preception being reality".
  

The advantages you mention are insignificant.
1. It only takes me about a minute to clean the rifled barrel of my shotgun.  The slugs I use don't really foul the barrel that much.
2. I already have a barrel as well as another shotgun with removable chokes that I hunt turkey with and I don't have to worry about changing scopes out.  Actually, I just use the bead sights on the barrel so I have no need of a 2nd scope.  My eyes still work fine.
3. I did sight in my rifled barrel with foster slugs before moving on to more expensive slugs.
4.  You can shoot buckshot out of rifled barrels.  The pattern is just a little tighter.  As stated earlier, I also have a barrel with removable chokes if I need to use it.

With your solution, you still need a 2nd barrel or in the case of the browning, a second gun if you intend to do any hunting other than deer and turkey unless of course you want to try wing shooting with a shotgun scope.  The browning was discontinued 10 years ago which means the testing that you refer to was over 10 years ago, probably more like closer to 15 years ago.  Both rilfed shotguns as well as the modern day slugs have changed exponentially in that time.  Rifling is faster and so are the slugs.  The Deerslayer III claims 4 inch groups at 200 yds.  You are basing your information on out of date testing.

Like jjas asked, Can you comment as to what brand, velocity, weights of the slugs tested, as well as the  length and twist rate of the Browning choke tubes?   

[SHOOTALL]

in a Rem 870 12 ga. i tried a hastings 24 inch  full rifled bbl , a rem 20 inch smooth bore with a flush rem rifled choke and a rem extended rifle choke . Keep in mind this was over 10 years ago or more . with the winchester sabot slugs aval. the flush tube gave the tighest group. This was before i read the imformation on the tar hunt site . I still have the two tubes and the short one still out shoots the extended one with most slugs . Sold the full rifled bbl , it was bright blue , it shot 3-4 inch groups at 50 yards . it was a rifle sighted bbl no scope .
I still use the tube sometimes when i want to use buck or slugs as a change of the tube allows either in the same gun .
If i were buying a new gun for slugs ( I DID ) it would be a Savage 210 with a scope and full rifled bbl in 20 ga.
if i wanted to switch back and forth it would be a 870

[Don Gordon]

  
[/quote]

4.  You can shoot buckshot out of rifled barrels.  The pattern is just a little tighter.  As stated earlier, I also have a barrel with removable chokes if I need to use it.
[/quote]


4) Tighter buckshot patterns from a rifled barrel??   You can't be serious.  The same rifling that spins a slug, spins a shotcup and pellets.  Centrifugal force causes the pellets to push to the walls of the shotcup in the bore.  Once it leaves the barrel the shot spreads radically.    I've patterned shot loads out of both rifled barrels and rifled tubes and the patterns are about 15 feet at 20 yards.   The patterns were so broad,  I patterned them against an old shed.   (This was 15 years ago, so maybe the newer buckshot loads are different. )

[SHOOTALL]

the booklet that came with my browning gold slug gun said it would shoot buck shot ok , never tried it .

[Don Gordon]

Don,

I find it very interesting that you worked for Browning and these are the results of testing.  For years we've all heard that fully rifled barrels were the only way to take advantage of saboted ammo and that rifled choke tubes were a marginal substitute @ best. 

Can you comment as to what brand, velocity, weights of the slugs tested, as well as the  length and twist rate of the Browning choke tubes?   

Thanks,

jjas

JJAS,
      Yes, I know.  For years we've all heard it, but have you ever seen a published in-depth article that actually was Apples-to-apples??  Most of the time if there were comparisons, it was with a fully rifled barrel and cantilever mount, versus a rifled choke tube with a saddle mount.  I believe that Browning had sample targets in their catalog the year of introduction so perhaps someone on the forum can pull it up.

     Browning did extensive testing with what was on the market at the time from all three majors: Rem, Fed, and Win, and also  Brenneke, Activ, and Lightfield.  Sabots were just starting to take off but had been out for several years.  At that time slugs weighed 440grains (BRI) upto 1 1/4oz (brenneke).

    It has been 10 years, so I don't recall the twist rates.   I do recall that the Sales Reps at the Sales meetings were just as skeptical, and they had to pull the R&D engineers in to explain the testing and results.

   Your question about the twist rates is interesting, in that with the large variety of slugs on the market today it would be interesting to find out what twists would work best with certain velocity/weights.     Perhaps a progressive gun company could offer cantilevered choked barrel could be offered with two different twists to optimize between the 1300fps variety and the 1900fps versions, much the same way turkey hunters have their choice of choke constrictions.

[Don Gordon]

Shootall,
    

    That's interesting about the Browning Gold booklet.   I checked the Brownin[g website's FAQ and it had this to say:


Sabot Express Rifled Choke Tube. Extremely effective with both sabot and Foster slugs and 00 buckshot and larger. This tube out performed a rifled barrel in Browning tests. Threaded for Invector-Plus back-bored 12 ga. shotguns.

      Here is the Link:http://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?id=150   

  Evidently, they don't have the  extreme pattern spread as they do with shot smaller than 00 buck.    It is interesting that the tests for the BackBored Rifled tube states that this outperformed a rifled barrel.  This testing is more recent than the ABolt testing which was with standard dimension bores.
                   
     

[Don Gordon]

  

4.  You can shoot buckshot out of rifled barrels.  The pattern is just a little tighter.  As stated earlier, I also have a barrel with removable chokes if I need to use it.
[/quote]


4) Tighter buckshot patterns from a rifled barrel??   You can't be serious.  The same rifling that spins a slug, spins a shotcup and pellets.  Centrifugal force causes the pellets to push to the walls of the shotcup in the bore.  Once it leaves the barrel the shot spreads radically.    I've patterned shot loads out of both rifled barrels and rifled tubes and the patterns are about 15 feet at 20 yards.   The patterns were so broad,  I patterned them against an old shed.   (This was 15 years ago, so maybe the newer buckshot loads are different. )
[/quote]


Jim,
     I did some checking on the Browning website and it seems that with a BackBored Barrel (.740") and their Sabot Express Rifled Choke tube, that they claim it is effective with 00 Buckshot and Larger.   So, maybe a standard bore rifled barrel will shoot effective buckshot patterns.   My earlier testing was with #4's and #8's in standard bore barrels (.728"), which patterned more open that "sawed off".    What kind of groups are you getting with a rifled barrel and 00 Buck?

[jjas]

Don,

Thanks for your reply.  It's always informative to get feedback from people who actually work/worked in the industry and thus have first hand knowledge from a manufacturing standpoint. 

JJAS

[SHOOTALL]

if we look bact to the 1800's they had what they called a cape gun . it had rifling in the last few inches of the bbl and was used for shot and ball ammo . it allowed a traveling sportsman to take advantage of any game he encountered

[Big Al in Nebr]

Diesel40, I tried a rifled choke tube in a Rem 11-87.  Wore out my shoulder and my wallet trying different slugs, but came to the conclusion that it was more a problem of sights.  I will be restesting this with a saddle mounted scope.  From what I've gathered here and on other sites, it seems that each individual gun is very particular to the brand of slug that works best.  I have taken deer with mine with Foster slugs at close range and they are deadly!