Author Topic: Tumble Bullets ??  (Read 1465 times)

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Offline GameHauler

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Tumble Bullets ??
« on: January 11, 2009, 12:55:35 PM »
Has anyone ever tumbled older slightly tarnished bullets before loading?
Got to luv us over thinking newbies :D
Mike
Mike

Offline John Traveler

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2009, 06:01:22 PM »
I've routinely tumbled tarnished old bullets to make them look like new before loading.

Years ago, when Sierra Bullets was located in the Los Angeles area (Santa Fe Springs), my shooting buddies and I would pool together and make periodic trips to buy the factory "seconds" which were mostly slightly tarnished cosmetic bullets which were not boxed and sold.  Bargain priced jacketed bullets sold by the pound!

So, yes, tumbling jacketed bullets is a viable operation.
John Traveler

Offline Savage

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 02:20:46 AM »
I wouldn't tumble bullets with exposed lead tips. Actually----------I wouldn't tumble any bullets. I can't think of any advantage a shiny bullet has over a dull one.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 02:46:30 AM »
I have tumbled tarnished bullets. I added Midway liquid brass polish to make them extra bright. All the newly loaded shiny bullets all lined up in the 50 round box is a satisfying sight.

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline Old Fart

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 05:59:00 AM »
I guess you could.  ???

I don't usually hang on to any round long enough to appreciate how shiny it is though.

Whatever is down range usually doesn't mind either.  ;)

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Offline BCall

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 07:27:32 AM »
Other than its probably not necessary, I can't think of any reason not to. People tumble bullets all the time to moly coat them. Can't see why doing it to clean them would be any different. Billy

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 08:59:28 AM »
cheese +1
I know of a reloader that tumbles loaded rounds after loading to make them look better . He has never had a problem . Looked like a good way to plug a primer hole to me .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline calvon

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 10:39:38 AM »
I tumble my fired pistol brass after firing it and before I do anything else. I do so to keep grit and other junk out of my dies. After tumbling I size and deprime which takes care of any tumble medium stuck in the primer hole.

Others may disagree but I think tumbling loaded rounds is looking for trouble. Fine grained powder, assuming otherwise identical, will burn faster than coarse grained powder. Piobert's Law in action.
Tumbling might cause some of the powder grains to break into smaller pieces, creating more burning surface, and thus a faster burn.

Offline Savage

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 12:45:42 PM »
Others may disagree but I think tumbling loaded rounds is looking for trouble. Fine grained powder, assuming otherwise identical, will burn faster than coarse grained powder. Piobert's Law in action.
Tumbling might cause some of the powder grains to break into smaller pieces, creating more burning surface, and thus a faster burn.


I agree!! I can see that being especially true with ball and extruded powders. Some powders also have a coating to control burn rate as well. Tumbling could also remove that. I have never known anyone to tumble loaded rounds! What a waste of time and resources, not to mention creating a potentially dangerous situation.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2009, 12:47:13 PM »
I only tumble tarnished componant bullets.

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline res45

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2009, 12:47:51 PM »
I tumble old Mil-Surplus bullet all the time or an occasional old box of factory bullets that have tarnished really bad to shine them up, but I don't tumble loaded ammo.
Linux Mint Mate 15

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2009, 02:38:03 AM »
the guy i mentioned does it alot , had reloads from the 60's and 70's that showed there age so he tumbled then . Now after loading most anything he cleans them up . I agree with Savage also and told the guy but he has done this for years with out a problem .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline skb2706

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2009, 07:36:20 AM »
I have tumbled moly coating off bullets all the time works good and have found no ill effects.  I also have some bullets I bought many years ago that I still use regularly for big game hunting. How about a box of .30 cal 180 gr. BTSP Sierras with a price marked $5.99/100. They are tarnished a bit.

Tumbling loaded rounds isn't any more dangerous in my home than rounds that are loaded on to the wing of a jet fighter, flown hundreds of miles and shot.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2009, 07:51:04 AM »
that's a thought ! the jet thing .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Savage

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 08:02:47 AM »
Tumbling loaded rounds isn't any more dangerous in my home than rounds that are loaded on to the wing of a jet fighter, flown hundreds of miles and shot.


Hardly the same as running ammo thru a vibratory finisher. No comparison!
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline skb2706

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 09:48:42 AM »
Right, loaded rounds shakiing thru the take off and flight of a jet that travels at mach 1.5 has no vibration. Only in your world my friend. The risks of tumbling loaded rounds is a myth and can not, nor ever has been proven to be of any risk. Unfounded fears just like ghosts and spooks.

Offline Steve P

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 11:32:08 AM »
My buddy and I make our own jacketed bullets.  We tumble 1000s of them to clean off sizing lube and bring back the shine.

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline John Traveler

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 02:30:07 PM »
All of the ammo manufacturers tumble their loaded rounds as a final step to remove fingerprints, lubricant, and light tarnish.  This step is done just before sorting and boxing the loaded rounds.  Now, the home reloader can do it too.  Just don't overdo it!  I expose my loaded rounds to no more than 10 15 minutes of granulated corn cob with a dash of degreasing solvent.


SKB is correct.  It so happens that I work in the aerospace industry as a technical writer, and frequently results of vibrational stress studies of military aircraft components.  They are tested to almost unbelievable limits exceeding several normal lifetimes of normal flight.  The "G" forces applied are much greater than any amount of vibrator tumbling of loaded ammunition anyone could possibly do.
John Traveler

Offline Vinny

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 02:41:23 PM »
I tumble military pull-down bullets,,,just to make them purty  ;)

Tumbled thousands of rounds of loaded ammo over the last 30 years too,,,without issue.

The full-time commercial reloaded I knew in NY did'nt tumble them first unless they were really nasty from an outdoor range.
He almost always reloaded them first and then tumbled them, in electric cement mixers.


Offline Savage

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2009, 09:46:02 AM »
As I have heard no practical reason to do so, I do not tumble loaded rounds. And for what it's worth, the vibration impulse frequencies of a vibratory finisher are quite unlike any that might occur in transport, train, plane, or truck.
I'm sure you can find someone to argue either side of the issue, so draw your on conclusions.
Savage

September 2, 2008
Why You Should NOT Tumble Loaded Ammunition
Filed under: Bullets, Brass, Ammo — Tags: ammo, Tumbler — Editor @ 11 am

One of our readers asked: “Is it OK to clean live, loaded ammo in a vibratory tumbler?” The basic answer is NO, do NOT tumble live ammo in a vibratory tumbler. There are serious potential safety hazards that can result from tumbling live ammo. Since it is really NOT necessary to tumble loaded ammo, why take the risk?

Tumbling Can Alter Powder Burn Properties
The main reason to avoid tumbling loaded ammo is that tumbling can break down the powder kernels inside the case and/or alter the burn-rate retarding coatings on the outside of the kernels. This can alter the powder’s burning properties, with dangerous consequences. If you vibrate loaded rounds for a long time, you can both grind or shear the kernels and alter the kernels’ external coatings. Read the warnings on a can of powder, it says do not shake (for that reason).

While we are aware that some hand-loaders, particularly pistol shooters, tumble loaded ammo to remove residual lube or just to make their ammo nice and shiny, this is NOT a sensible procedure. RCBS and most ammo-makers specifically warn against tumbling live ammo in a vibratory tumbler. Hodgdon’s official policy is: “Completed ammo should not be tumbled. The powder will degrade and increase in burn speed.” (From Mike Daly, Customer Satisfaction Manager, Hodgdon/IMR.)

Consider this commentary from the Fr. Frog website:

Q. Is tumbling loaded ammunition dangerous?

Answer: “…Extensive tumbling can cause the breakdown of the powder grains. This would have two major effects. First, smaller grains will ignite more quickly than larger grains, and second the deterrent coating on the outside of the grains may be rubbed off and will be absent from any fractured edges which will cause the powder to burn more quickly raising pressures.

Tests run some years ago by a commercial entity did indicate that potentially dangerous changes in powder charge burning characteristics do take place after PROLONGED periods in either a vibratory or a tumbling cleaner.

The key word here is prolonged. Many manufacturers of ammunition do a final cleaning of their product either by tumbling or a vibratory process before boxing it for shipment. In no case is this allowed to exceed more than just a couple of minutes. The intent is not so much to “polish” but to remove any traces of contaminants which might in time leave marks on the finished product. There seems to be a consensus among the ammunition manufacturing engineers that a minute or two of vibratory cleaning has no discernable effect on burning rates, especially for loads that are compressed, or nearly so. However, all have emphasized the need for EXTREME CAUTION not to overdo the process.

They also pointed out that there is a considerable difference in effect on the powder charge depending on whether the process is by ‘tumbling’ or ‘vibrating’. It would appear that tumbling has less effect on the powder than vibrating, though this is mostly a matter of degree. The admonition to use EXTREME CAUTION to insure that the process never exceeds a couple of minutes applies equally to either process.”


An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2009, 02:16:53 PM »
I wouldn't tumble bullets with exposed lead tips. Actually----------I wouldn't tumble any bullets. I can't think of any advantage a shiny bullet has over a dull one.
Savage

What.....are you kidding? Why.....you just won't get near the "Ooooh's and Ahhhhh's" when a dull bullet is traveling down range at 2800fps when compared to a shiny one!  And if your hunting....your deer will fall over much faster with a shiny bullet. It's been proven over in Europe time and time again.

Dave ::)

Offline Savage

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2009, 03:47:54 PM »
Dave,
Reason enough, I'll get right on it. I've got about 4k .224 bulk bullets that are a little dull.  ;) OR--------I could run a couple 5 gal buckets of brass thru the tumblers.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 02:43:29 AM »
 ;D Well....that should keep you busy for a few hours! Enjoy! (Just nothing more fun than brass prep!  :-\)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2009, 09:03:02 AM »
guess that was western  Europe as the ammo i have seen from eastern Europe ain't pretty .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2009, 04:51:37 PM »
guess that was western  Europe as the ammo i have seen from eastern Europe ain't pretty .

Women...or ammo.....OH...you are talking ammo. Yeah.....close call there.  ;D :D ;)

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2009, 06:54:05 PM »
Savage

Obviously you have not ridden in a military tracked vehicle with all sorts of ammo laying loose in cans (next to the guns) or cases of ammo riding on the deck for days and weeks on end.  Also you've obviously never ridden in the back of an old "duece an a half" going down the road.  There isn't 3-4 hours in a vibrator that will come anywhere close to that kind of vibration.  Comprehensive tests by the military long ago proved that "vibration" (they tested it with severe vibration) does not degrade ammuntion.  Sometimes one should not take council of ones fears and attempt to rationize that fear.  You don't want to tumble loaded ammo, don't.

BTW; a good reason to vibrate or tumble loaded ammo is to remove the case lube after loading on a progressive press.  I tumble (thumbler's) lots of loaded ammo for just this reason for 30 minutes in pitch free saw dust.  Works great.

Larry Gibson

Offline Savage

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Re: Tumble Bullets ??
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2009, 02:26:12 AM »
Larry,
 I suspect I've spent as much time as most in a "Duece", "APCs", boats, and aircraft.  Rough ride sometimes indeed. That in NO way can be compared to the vibration impulses of a vibratory tumbler!  Doesn't take much of a stretch to figure that one out. A few minutes to remove case lube is one thing, routinely tumbling loaded ammo for extended periods is quite another. I don't use enough case lube to require tumbling for removal. As no one has made a case for the benefit of tumbling loaded ammo, and the potential for altering shape/size/coatings, of propellants has not been disproved, I'm not likely to start. Don't have any fears to "Take council of"  ::) Just not willing to perform an operation that accomplishes nothing that can't be done in a fraction of the time with a rag and alcohol.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,