Author Topic: need help from knowledgeable shooters  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline badass58

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need help from knowledgeable shooters
« on: December 13, 2008, 11:44:00 AM »
I have a great western 2 custom in 45lc.My dreams of being a cowboy are dwindling with each shot.Terrible groups,think I can do better if i just throw the gun at the target.Like to shoot bout 20 paces,What kind of groups can i expect and can handloading help these any?I'm new to shooting pistols any help would be greatly appreciated.Thanks;Tom

Offline bilmac

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2008, 04:58:03 PM »
If you are just blazing away off your hind leggs you are discovering that shooting a handgun is not easy. It takes lots and lots of practice to get good. To convince yourself that there isn't anything wrong with your guns shoot them off a bench. Rest the back of the barrel on a sandbag, and then use rests under your wrists and maybe even under your chin. Then squeeze them off carefully. At 25 yards your gun should be able to shoot a 4" group. 2 1/2" is pretty good.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 01:23:12 AM »
like he said. Bench your gun. Its a fixed sighted gun and my not even be shooting to where the sights are.
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Offline blhof

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 02:50:41 AM »
Also get a variety of ammo; different wts. and power.  Point of aim is dependant on the ammo sighted for.  Cowboy action ammo is lighter recoil and a good starting point to get on target and have an idea where you're hitting

Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 05:04:10 PM »
Even if you use a bench you will be trying to line up three objects which are the two sights on the gun (a short radious) and the target which is much farther away!
Try concentrating on those sights making sure to keep them in sharp focus and go ahead and let your target blurr out somewhat.

Squeeze that trigger like bilmac said and dont be looking over the top of the gun upon recoil to see if you scored a hit. You will get there if you find that shooting is something that you enjoy doing.

Offline Steve P

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 05:03:29 AM »
Tom,

You have several things going for you, and several things against you.  You have come to the right place so we can help you improve ALL of them and get you to becoming an excellent pistol shot.

First, you are new to pistol shooting so you should have no bad habits.  It is good to start off right.  Second, you have ambition that it takes to start.  Third, you are probably at your worst right now so from here on out, everything gets better.

As a new shooter, it is easy to get discouraged.  DONT.  This is going to be your hardest obstacle.  Second, it is going to feel like it is taking too long to get where you feel you should be.  Unless you are an exceptional marksman, it is going to take some time and practice.  Practice at home, and at the range. 

You need to find a buddy.  Someone who can shoot with you.  You mentioned cowboy shooting.  If there is a local club that is shooting cowboy action, go down there at watch.  Get the good shooters to start talking about their guns and how they shoot the stages.  You will find someone to mesh with that will help you out and will take you to the range to practice, or can give you tips.

You notice that I am 4 paragraphs into this novel and I haven't even mentioned a gun or loads yet.  90% of what you need to know comes before you even fire a shot.  Learning about your gun, your loads, and what to expect come first.  Writing into this board and asking for help is an EXCELLENT way to get this going.

Most of the cowboy shooters have a handgun that has some trigger work.  Smoothing of surfaces, spring work, honing in the right places.  Most of these types of handguns come from the factory with 4-5 lb trigger pulls.  Most of those cowboy shooters probably have a trigger at 2 lbs, maybe up to 3 lbs.  But it is crisp and likely without creep.  As a new shooter, these may be unfamiliar terms, but this is where having an experienced shooting buddy can help.

Most of the cowboy shooters are shooting subsonic or really light loads.  Because they do not have a lot of velocity, they have what is called a rainbow trajectory.  The bullet leaves the barrel, comes up to the line of sight, goes above the line of sight, drops back down to the line of sight, then drops below the line of sight.  At X distance from your barrel, your sights and bullet are on the same path.  At Y distance further, your bullet comes back to your line of sight.  Basically you can aim right on at two specific distances.  Anything different, your bullet is going to be above or below your sight picture.  You have to figure out what load you are going to shoot and find out what these distances are.

Most handguns shoot respectable groups with any ammo.  By respectable I am talking 3-5" at 25 yards.  You can tailor a handload that can do better for your gun.  Lots of the Cowboy shooters have been tinkering with loads for a long time and can come up with loads for you.  My 45LC load that I could use for cowboy shooting is a 245gr semi-wad cutter bullet with a mild load of Unique powder.  Very accurate in my Vaquero and very mild.

I have never shot my Vaquero on paper targets with bulls eyes.  In my honest opinion, bulls eyes are made to zero in scopes and to set sights only.  Most of the paper target I shoot at have Silhouette animals on them.  Chicken, Pig, Turkey, Ram.  You can also find military silhouette targets that have human torsos on them.  You have a much bigger target to aim at, and a broader area that constitutes a good hit.  You should only go to smaller target once you have mastered the bigger targets.

Shooting a revolver off a bench is TOTALLY different from shooting a rifle on a bench.  You have no forearm to rest on.  You have a different type of recoil.  You have a different type of hold.  So, we have to teach you how to shoot off the bench to get you comfortable with your load.  Once you know where your load is going to hit, you can get your confidence at hitting targets.

When you shoot a revolver on a bench, rest the grip frame on a sandbag.  Use your dominant hand to hold the gun steady on the bag.  Use your other hand to stop any shaking and help support the gun on recoil.  Cock your handgun with your un-dominant hand.  This allows the dominant hand to keep your grip.  Align your sights even.  I use a 6 o'clock hold on my targets.  Once my sights are aligned, I line the sights up to my target, THEN put my finger into the trigger guard and onto the trigger.  Slowly take in half a breath and hold it as you start to sloooooowllllllllyyyyyyy squeeze the trigger.  Try to watch your bullet hit, right over your sight picture.  Tame the recoil with your hands, but keep your eyes and head looking down those sight.  This is called "follow thru".  The gun will recoil out of the way, but you want to keep watching where your sights were and where that bullet is going.  See where it hit?  Adjust sights as necessary, and try again.  Start at the very beginning and do EACH AND EVERY STEP EXACTLY THE SAME.  If you alter your hand pressure, cock the gun with your dominant hand, put your finger into the trigger housing, or do anything out of order, your shot will go to a different spot.  Consistency in getting your shot off is paramount to accuracy.

Every time you shoot that revolver, it becomes lighter.  245grs of bullet and 10-15 grains of powder are gone with each shot.  It is not uncommon for subsequent shots to be higher, because you have less weight holding your gun down on recoil.  Experience will help with this. 

When you are first starting with a cowboy type gun, the best target to start shooting at is one that gives instant gratification.  I have never had good results with gratification with paper targets.  I took my Vacquero to a local gravel pit.  I had a couple of soda cans and picked up what garbage others had left.  (I took it all home when completed and threw it away.)  My Vacquero and I got acquainted over the hood of my bronco, in about 5" of snow, with several soda cans.  Every time I shot either snow or that soda can flew.  I could see immediately where I was hitting, could adjust my aim, and fire again.  I went from 1-2 hits on that can per cylinder, to either hitting the can or moving it with each shot.  Within 100 rounds, I was hooked on that gun.  I have had several sessions like this where it was me and the Vacquero with soda cans, or balloons, or milk jugs.  Get used to hitting larger targets and work your way to smaller targets.  Make the target something gratifying by having it move or fall or spin or whatever. 

Take a few of these hints with you.  Shoot a box of shells at fun targets and see how you do.  Get some snap caps or make your own snap caps by taking 6 empty brass without primers and put pencil erasers in the primer holes.  Set up a little bench at home, with the sandback and practice your hold and squeeze.  My wife and daughters began to catch on every time I watched an old western movie with one of my sixguns in hand.  I either had a new gun or new set of sights I was practicing with.  Old Ned Pepper was shot more times with one of my revolvers than John Wayne ever fired off.

Have fun and enjoy it.  If you have problems, just ask.  We are here for you and really do appreciate where you are and your opportunities ahead.

Steve :) 
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Rangr44

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 08:41:32 AM »
As with rifles, folks new to pistols generally will find it advantageous to hone their skills with a .22 rimfire, before moving up to a fire-breather.   ::)

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Offline BlkHawk73

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 10:58:56 AM »
  New to handguns and you're starting with a .45 ?   ok, back up.  Chances are you've developed some had shooting habits (flinching, trigger control, etc)  It's SO much easier to start small and progress.  Those little .22's aren't just for kids.  They're the perfect beginner's firearm and a lot of fun for anyone.  Much easier to learn and develop the proper shooting techniques with a low recoiling and low report .2lr than with the larger chamberings which will be more prone to cause improper techniques.  Pretty hard to unlearn something.  Much easier to learn it the right way from the get go. 

  Sooo...get a Single Six or another decent .22lr chambered revolver and start over.
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Offline bilmac

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 06:11:03 PM »
Mot to mention the price of bullets. It takes lots of bullets to learn to shoot a handgun.

Offline badass58

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2008, 10:33:14 AM »
Thanks for all the help guys.shot up couple boxes cowboy ammo and concentrating harder on aiming thru.groups are tightening up,now to get rid of the -40windchill here in Iowa so I can shoot some more.Might go borrow pa's old 22 pistol and sharpen the basics.Thanks alot!

Offline Bill of Ojai

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 06:54:26 AM »
Wow! All good stuff.  Like to reiterate the concept of follow-through with each shot.  Lock time is longer on a single action than, say, a Smith & Wesson revolver.
I try to keep the sight picture through the shot and recoil.  Helps a lot.  All the best!

Offline Flash

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 09:33:17 AM »
What about the chamber throats? They all might be undersized and the forcing cone might not have any uniformity.
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 09:35:28 AM »
I have been shooting single actions for over 35 years, mostly big bores.
It never hurts to be reminded of the proper technique for shooting accurate hand guns.
There was a lot of good info in STEVE Ps reply.
Wish I would have had that advice when I started.
Had to learn the hard way!
May not always kill the can at 25 but can defend myself out past 75! ;)

Just got my custom built GALLAGER back a few weeks ago and now we will see just how good or bad I really am!  ;)

Now if I only had one of my better upland game guns set up to fit me maybe I wouldn't look so bad during dove season!!! :D


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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2009, 01:10:50 AM »
I have a buddy that just got into handguns, he has watch me shoot and he thought it looked easy. When he stated shooting some of my handguns, he ask why he could not shoot the guns as well as I do. He said they must not be sighted in for him.

I told him, it takes a lot of practice to become proficient. If you want to shoot perfect, you must practice perfect. Learn the proper hold, consistent trigger pull, and start out with a handgun that does not make you flinch. Flinching is one of the number one bad habits to get rid of. I have tried to work with my buddy, but he just does not have patents or dedication to want to learn proper technique.
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Offline moparman2

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Re: need help from knowledgeable shooters
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 04:47:46 AM »
I started out at 9 years old shooting a Ruger Bearcat. No one to teach me how to shoot a handgun. I put lots of shells through that gun and didn't hit much. I thought if I lined up the sights it should shoot to point of aim. It didn't. Early 20's got serious and knew I needed a bigger gun. .357 Security six and blazed away didn't hit anything. Finally got a little smarter bought a new Ruger single six with 9 1/2" barrel. Shot different shells till I found the ones the gun liked best and adjusted the sights to hit point of aim. Then for the next several years I shot the gun constantly at all ranges. 50 to 100 shells a day at least 4 days a week. Many years and many guns down the line it is much easier to hit with a handgun though still much harder than with a rifle. You can't cheat experience and it takes lots of ammo to do it. I always recommend a .22 when starting out. And I have always believed what Ross Seyfried said in a article many years ago.
"Beware of the plinker he has learned to hit targets at all different ranges and holdover" or something to that effect. And I did figure out that little Bearcat 20 years or so after I started with it. It was me along and not the gun. It is very accurate after all. :D