Author Topic: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.  (Read 879 times)

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Offline JimG

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FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« on: January 04, 2009, 01:26:35 PM »
I've always been puzzled by this and have not bothered to check it out until today. According to the 'sticky', older NEF/H-R's use a 1/4-28 screw to hold the forearm instead of the 1/4-20 used today. The 'sticky' says you can use a metric 6-16 screw in it's place if you cannot find a fine thread 1/4" machine screw. Well that's wrong. First off the OD of the threads is too small and the thread pitch is not even close. I suppose if you used some sort of a heli-coil I guess it would work but not as is. I had to go to the local farm store today to buy some machine screws for another firearm project and checked this out. I used a thread pitch gauge and the corresponding nuts for the screws to check for compatability. It just don't work folks.

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 01:33:19 PM »
Sorry for the problem JimG. I have them (something anyway) in mine and they work fine. I hope the numbers did not get messed up in posting. I have to purchase 2 more of the metric SS flathead forearm screws tomorrow so I will check the numbers and post back then....<><....:)

please see my post dated 1/5/09, the size 6/16 (metric) is correct and they work great in my Handis with a 1/4x28 threaded forearm hanger stud....
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline JimG

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2009, 01:43:20 PM »
You don't have to apologize!  :D  I didn't need it for a Handy but needed a 1/4-28 for a Marlin and thought that maybe I'd try a 6-16. I 'made' what I needed from a 1/4-28 with a 7/16 bolt head. Looks ok I guess. Really needs a panhead machine screw. They didn't have anything in 1/4-28 with a panhead. I could order one from McMaster Carr but I'd have pay about $20 (have to order in mass quantity).

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2009, 01:53:57 PM »
Sorry for the problem JimG. I have them (something anyway) in mine and they work fine. I hope the numbers did not get messed up in posting. I have to purchase 2 more of the metric SS flathead forearm screws tomorrow so I will check the numbers and post back then....<><....:)

Thanks Andy, the statement in the FAQs was copied and pasted directly from one of your recent posts to include your usual signature "fish". ;)

Tim
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2009, 01:54:31 PM »
just an idea but what I did before I found these flathead SS 1/2" screws that fit the 1/4x28 forearm hangers so well was to buy a brass screw/bolt of the correct diameter and run them through the proper die to easily reform the threads, not perfect from a machineists eye but they worked great and the brass threads were easy to redo. If you don't have the proper die just running them through a steel nut with a bit of lube works as well. I will get back with the size tomorrow....<><....:)

Yes, it looks as if I may have the wrong numbers Tim, but I was pretty sure about them a couple of years ago whe I first posted that. I just sold a Topper 12 gauge barrel with one of those SS screws in the hanger and it fit great...
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Jones

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2009, 01:58:24 PM »
If you need a 1/4" fine ill send you one.

  GJ

Offline JimG

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2009, 02:12:13 PM »
Are the 6-16's supposed to thread EASILY into the 1/4-28? I suppose you could force the issue. Also here could be the rub-

The screws I tinkered with were actually 6-16 by 1.00 pitch. It'a all they had in 6 millimeter diameter machine screws. I suppose there could be other pitches available. Like 1/4-20 vs 1/4-28.

Offline JimG

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2009, 02:21:59 PM »
GJ-

The 1/4-28 panhead machine screw in the Marlin was 3/4" long. After pillar bedding and shimming the stock to free float the barrel I now need a screw that is a full 1" long. Now that is 1" of threads, I'm not including the head in the measurement. If you have such a screw let me know. I don't care if it's a allen head, phillips or slotted head, as long as it's a panhead. I'll send you a pre-stamped envelope to mail it to me. Also advise me on cost of the screw. THANKS!

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2009, 02:32:07 PM »
You'd better make that a padded envelope, you can't ship a screw in a regular envelope and expect it to arrive intact. ;)

Tim
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2009, 03:03:22 PM »
you can't ship a screw in a regular envelope and expect it to arrive intact. ;)

Now you tell me!   ::)  I sent a screw to a member a couple weeks ago, in a plastic baggie sandwiched between 2 3x5 cards.  I paid extra postage for special handling at the suggestion of the man at the post office when I told him what it was.  When it got to the member the screw had been stripped right out of the envelope!   :(
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2009, 03:05:56 PM »
I am at work and I just took a 6-16 screw and screwed it into a 1/4-28 nut and it worked fine. Won't work on 1/4-20 though.Kurt
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2009, 03:11:27 PM »
Yes the postal gorilla's will eat all screws in envelopes also brass cases and even nipples for ML's . I put the address on then take and cover envelope with packaging tape front and back and they seem to get thru the jungle ok.But try and tell that to someone sending you something for free. Also make sure you put the postage on top of tape. Kurt
Deceased 2/16/24
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Sportster17M2,20"Nickle410Tamer,26"410,
WTUTI12ga,WTU25-06,M158 22RemJet, 24"Ultra.204Ruger24"UltraFluted.204Ruger
M157Mannliker.22Hornet,24".223UltraFluted,   24".223Ultra,7X64BrenekkeUltra,22-250AIUltraFluted            7.62x39,22"303Britstub.32H&Rmag, .32303BritstubHuntsman,24" SS.50calHuntsman 58calHuntsman 12gaHuntsman
NEF RevolversSSModel73.32H&Rmag                     Blued Model73.32H&R mag The herd is shrinking!!
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2009, 03:13:06 PM »
Jim yours is most likley 1/4-20 or has buggered threads. Kurt
Deceased 2/16/24
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/machesney-park-il/kurt-heckman-11671764

Sportster17M2,20"Nickle410Tamer,26"410,
WTUTI12ga,WTU25-06,M158 22RemJet, 24"Ultra.204Ruger24"UltraFluted.204Ruger
M157Mannliker.22Hornet,24".223UltraFluted,   24".223Ultra,7X64BrenekkeUltra,22-250AIUltraFluted            7.62x39,22"303Britstub.32H&Rmag, .32303BritstubHuntsman,24" SS.50calHuntsman 58calHuntsman 12gaHuntsman
NEF RevolversSSModel73.32H&Rmag                     Blued Model73.32H&R mag The herd is shrinking!!
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Offline revbc

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2009, 03:28:49 PM »
Speaking of the postal gorillas.............

The just ate a set of 30/30 dies and brass that was mailed to me.  Got the package in a clear envelope saying, "we're sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused" :'(
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2009, 05:24:32 PM »
It ain't people mishandling it and causing the damage, it's machines, anything in a letter style envelope will be sent thru high speed machines, any rigid article inside the envelope will cause a jam and damage to the hundreds of other letters that are piling up into the jam just like a chain reaction freeway pile up. It's up to postal "gorillas" to cull those kinds of articles out before they get to the machine, but if they're not in a padded type envelope, that doesn't happen.

Sorry Bobby, but if the remains of the package got to you in an envelope, it must not have been packed very well to begin with. I've been sending packages thru the mail for the last 40yrs since I first started working for the PO and have NEVER, EVER had a package lost or damaged that I shipped. Mailer irresponsibility is the main cause of damage/missing packages, pack it right and barring outright theft, it will arrive at its destination. Sorry, but I've seen too many packages in my postal career that adults supposedly packed that my 5yr old grandson could have packed better! ::)

Tim
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Offline JimG

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2009, 06:26:09 AM »
Ok, went back to the farm store today. I bought some metric and standard fasteners to play with. Here's what I came up with-

The 'sticky' is technically correct, yet it is wrong. Here's how I got there. A 6 millimeter OD screw with a 1.00 pitch WILL screw into a 1/4 inch by 28 pitch nut. However it only works because the 6 millimeter OD is too small for the 1/4" hole. I suppose it will work to hold a forearm on in an emergency BUT you cannot and I mean cannot apply any significant amount of torque to the screw or it will strip either the screw or the nut. Which ever is softer. I tried this by placing a 1/4-28 nut in a vise and slowly tightening the screw. The screw gave at 19 INCH pounds on my torque wrench. The 6mm screw has a lot of slop in a 1/4-28 nut. Try it and you will see. So I still disagree with the 'sticky'. I'm still hunting that elusive 1/4"-28 pitch x 1" thread length panhead screw!

Offline quickdtoo

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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2009, 08:56:00 AM »
Well it may be the difference in elevation or air pressure but I went the the hardware store today and purchased two 6x16 (1.0 Thread pitch) flat head SS screws for $.75 cents apiece, bright steel were $.45 each. I removed the slotted head blued steel 1/4x28 forearm screw and replaced it with the 6x16 metric and it works great, in my gun(s) at least. I just sold a Topper barrel that is threaded for a 1/4x28 forearm screw and it has a SS 6x16 screw in it and it works well also. If you only try it in one or 2 threads (or a thin nut) it is a bit loose you may be able to strip it out, however, when used in a forearm hanger stud with the greater number of threads and more bearing surface it works fine. Mine have for the last couple of years as have others that guys have used here. Yes. the numbers do not match exactly but they work for the application. I doubt there is anyone here that can rip off the forearm that is held on my gun(s) with the 6/16 flathead screw.

My suggestion, if you don't like it don't use it, get yourself a 1/4x28. Myself and others here have used it and it works. Also, compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Instead of TRYING to strip it out of a thin nut, try using a 6/16 in a 1/4x28 forearm stud and see how well it works and how strongly it holds, or you could use duct tape. There is a difference in diameter of 0.01378" between them which allows this substition to work. The increased numer of threads and bearing surface in the forearm hanger over a nut increases the strength of the attachment many time and allows it to work. Again, and very simply, if you don't like it, don't use it....<><.... ;)     
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Offline Hammerspur

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2009, 11:05:45 AM »
Here's a pic of some 1/4 x 28 screws I picked up from an industrial supply place near me:

                             

There a little long, so must be shortened before installing.
To the right is a 6 x 1.00mm from my motorcycle stuff screwed into a .58 Huntsman barrel stud.
It does fit but I wouldn't term it a 'Happy Marriage!'
Tried several from my stock and I didn't care for the tentative feel I got.
Maybe screws from another manufacturer would work better since there's lots of variation from
one brand to another.
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Offline JimG

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Re: FYI- Found an error in the 'stickies'.
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2009, 12:30:18 AM »
MSP Ret- Let's just agree to disagree. I think Hammerspur may be on to something- "Maybe screws from another manufacturer would work better since there's lots of variation from
one brand to another." I've noticed this from time to time concerning the heads (although not threads) of fasteners at work. Quickdtoo- I never knew about SmallParts.com. I'll be ordering some cap screws today. I'll burnish the oxide finish and blue. Prices are much cheaper and minimum quanities are much lower than McMaster Carr.