Boring out

[Rustyinfla]

   I've hear refrence a few times to several smiths that will rebore a barrel. I wonder if anyone has ever read the chapter on flintlock rifle making in the Foxfire books? In Foxfire #5 that have a chapter where they talk about a old rifle maker named Hacker Martin. Hacker gives pretty good instructions on how to rebore a barrel. He says they pulled the breach plug then stopped off the barrel and poured a lead slug. the slug was poured around a rod as well so it could be moved back and forth in the barrel. Hacker would then cut a small slot in the area of the slug where one of the grooves was. The slot would just hold a small piece of a file that he had cut just for this purpose. The slug would be pulled back and forth until the cutter was no longer cutting. All the while lard was poured into the barrel to act as a lubricant. After the cutter wasdone cutting the slug would be pulled out and turned so the cutter lined up with a new groove and so on until all the grooves were cut. then apiece of a wheat hull was placed under the cutter to act as a shim and everything was done all over again. the reason Hacker used a wheat hull was because he also ran a grist mill and that was handy.
  MY explanation was pretty crude but I think you'll get the idea just what was done and how easy it was in a primitive was. Anybody have any desire to try something like this? It sounds like the easy way to turn that extra .223 barrel into a .300 Whisper.

[BCall]

I think I'll pass. I'm sure it can be done, but it seems like a sure fire way for me to turn one into a tomato stake. YMMV, Billy

[quickdtoo]

I'll pass too, Wayne York does mine for me while I do something I know I can do that's not a waste of my time making labor intensive tomato stakes!! 

Tim

[Spanky]

No wonder the guy's name is Hacker!!



Spanky

[canon6]

Hacker Martin , was a very well respected gunsmith.The technique he was using was state of the art, for that period.His rifles  were well known for their  accuracy.        Doug

[Jimbo47]

Yea that kind of stuff is fascinating how folks used to do what they had to do, before we got into all this technologically advanced era.

I also think it is fascinating how Indians made knives and arrow heads out of rocks, but I guess I'm easy to impress!

[Spanky]

Yea that kind of stuff is fascinating how folks used to do what they had to do, before we got into all this technologically advanced era.

I also think it is fascinating how Indians made knives and arrow heads out of rocks, but I guess I'm easy to impress!

Some of the Indian stone arrowheads were sharper than a scalpel.
That's pretty amazing all things considered.


Spanky

[LaOtto222]

I think the method involved some sort of machine that would turn the cutter (file) at a twist rate and it would index so many degrees for the next groove. If one was "chasing" a groove already there, I would think it would take a WHOLE lot of filing to make much difference in the groove diameter and you would still have to bore it out. If you were opening up a barrel from say .450" to .458" they could just cast their balls a little bigger or add some wadding to make up the difference. Some of the early rifled barrels only had two grooves, some of the better ones had 4. Just stroking the cutter up and down a barrel will get you grooves that went straight down the barrel with out a twist. It may have worked, but can not imagine that it would be more accurate than the barrels made today and a whole lot of work. Remember, not that long ago - If one got a rifle that shot into 1 MOA, it was considered very accurate. 2 and 3 MOA was considered run of the mill type of accuracy. Now days, 1 MOA is considered pretty run of the mill. Could it be done today - most certainly. The cost would be prohibitive, much labor went into those methods and labor cost much more today. I could think of a lot of things I could spend my time at rather than making grooves in a barrel, when you can buy barrels at a reasonable cost that are accurate. At even only $20/hour and you spent 20 hours filing grooves it would be $400 in labor alone. I just bought a SS Shilen select match grade barrel ready for fitting on Savage action for $380. That included the cost of the barrel, cutting a custom chamber, threading it for my action and hand lapping the bore. Sounds very reasonable on cost when thinking about filing grooves into a barrel.

[Jimbo47]

Yea the cost would be astronomical.

Just an example yesterday I went to a couple of gun shops close by, and nothing to lose but time, and asked if they could ream my .357 mag. to Max, and not minding that the cost would probably be a little more than renting a reamer, I figured what the heck........Wrong!

One gunsmith said he could do it but it would cost me big $$$, and the other said he sends his out to be done, and I'd be looking a around $250 plus!

$28 bucks to rent one, or $100 to buy one!...No brainer as to what I'm going to do!

I need to take a course in Gunsmithing as my next hobby!

[LaOtto222]

The 'smiths you contacted either did not know how easy it is to do a Max from a 357 or did not want to do it. For some reason some Gunsmiths do not like to work on H&R rifles. Rather than say they will not work on them, they just make the price so high, you will not get it done. It does not cost $250 to have a barrel chambered from scratch, let alone just a simple ream job. I think they believe the work is not worth their effort on a "cheap" rifle. I reamed a 357 to a 357 Max and it literally took minutes to do. You do not have to be a gunsmith to do this job. It does not take any special tools, other than the reamer. I used a T-handle from a tap set I have to turn the reamer. Do not reverse the reamer at any time (it could chip the cutting edges). Use a good cutting fluid and take your time. It is MUCH easier than cutting grooves in a barrel which I would not even consider doing. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[Jimbo47]

Understand, and that was my take, that they just didn't want to bother.

I just figured I could save a little time, and pay a little more to do a job that would only take them a few minutes and I'd have the rifle ready to go faster than if I waited for the reamer to get here and do it myself.

Those gunsmiths build custom guns and do warranty work so I guess they don't want to mess with a cheap NEF rifle, when time is money to them.

[mike@nds]

You guys should watch this video called "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg".

It's what made me become a gunsmith.

You used to be able to buy a copy from Colonial Williamsburg directly, but I couldn't find it on their website.

http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/trades/tradegun.cfm

[LaOtto222]

Mike - I would like to do some gunsmith work. I have two things holding me back; a quality metal lathe and a quality vertical mill. Well maybe three - don't have the room for them if I had them, too.    Some day - Some day

[Rustyinfla]

  You really should go to your local library and check out the Foxfire book. Heck they are (the Foxfire books) all good. Hacker had a rifling bench and the whole set up. There is also another riflesmith who as far as I know is still living today that is talked about in that book by the name of Hershal House. Hershal made several videos on making flintlock rifles. The very first one he made was not a professional production but it still contained good information.
   I also seem to remember reading in a gun digest or annual of some time many years ago about a story of Harry Pope and the coming of age for his apprentice. Harry was sick and one of his best customers needed a barrel. The story went through great detail of how this was going to be the apprentice's first barrel all on his own. No one at the time knew Harry's secrets as they were closely guarded. The apprentice went very slowly very step of the way checking and double checking everything. When it was done he carried it to the master who looked it over and proclaimed it to be every bit as good as one he had made. The whole climax of the story was the apprentice still being puzzled as to what the secret of his barrels was even after he had just made one. Pope's reply was, it was the care with which you did the job.
   It makes you think, there are no real secrets, just GOOD WORKMANSHIP.

[OBXPilgrim]

One thing you may be forgetting about in regards to reboring a ML barrel with that method is the fact that it doesn't need to have a chamber cut for a brass case cartridge.  The ML barrel would be cut but the slug/ball forced down the same bore prior to shooting.  If you used this method to make a modern rebore - good luck getting the chamber concentric with the bore.

[Winter Hawk]

Another difference between the muzzleloader barrel and modern cartridge barrels is the hardness of the steel.  While Mr. Martin was cutting mild steel with his bit of file, you would play heck doing the same on your H&R barrel. 

If you want a fascinating read on building muzzleloaders the old way, try to get a copy of "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" by Ned Roberts.  It is out of print, but you may be able to get one through an inter-library loan.  It was written in the 1940s to preserve the knowledge of how to build and operate a front stuffer, since they were rapidly going out of style at the time.  He goes into barrel making, including building the rifling machine, in great detail.

-Winter Hawk-