Author Topic: Getting Started (Read 2494 times)

Bart Solo · « **on:** January 27, 2009, 03:40:04 AM »

I have been thinking about CAS. The coming season starts March 1. Because I haven't done much pistol shooting during the past 20 years I thought I might buy a Ruger Vaquero at the local Bass Pro this week and practice a little bit. At least I would be able to see if I could put a bullet on paper. I mentioned my idea to the President of the local club and he suggested I wait until after talking to the club members on March 1. He said I would probably learn a lot at the shoot and might even find a member or two interested in parting with some guns.

On a related note, my brother who lives in Florida is also interested in CAS. He has a buddy who shoots regularly. His buddy suggests he stick with 38/357. I am interested in 45 LC. Anybody have any thoughts on caliber.

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2009, 12:47:37 PM »

When I dabbled in the game I used a pair of Colt clones in .45 Colt from EMF and a Rossi lever action M92 also from EMF and also in .45 Colt. Folks after authenticity usually go with the .45 Colt or .44-40 whereas the gamers who are actually out to win go with the .38 special and the lightest loads that will come out the barrel and hit the target.

If you are out for fun only and are not a gamer who just has to win go with the .45 colt and either vaqueros or colt clones. If you just absolutely gotta try to beat the crowd vaqueros and light .38s are the key to winning.

Lazarus Longshot · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2009, 02:26:30 PM »

It's not just the "gamer" who shoots .38s. Some folks like the "boom" and heavy recoil of a heavy-loaded .45, some don't. Cost gets into the picture, too. Lorelei and I both shoot 4-6 matches each month. I find the .38 significantly cheaper than the .45, even reloading. If you don't reload, I highly recommend the .38!

I shoot both calibers, smokeless and black powder. Heck, I shoot cap and ball, too. What I shoot at a match depends on how I feel when I'm loading the gear in the truck.

I would also recommend not buying anything until you attend a match as a visitor. There's a whole bunch of different guns out there that are used for CAS. If you announce yourself as a prospective CAS shooter, I suspect you'll find folks falling all over themselves to let you try their guns. At our shoots, we've been known to fit out a new shooter so he could shoot the match before he has any guns. Most folks bring spare guns, someone usually has spare leather, etc.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2009, 04:46:41 PM »

I went to a shoot last year and found it to be great time. The people were wonderful and inviting. I have sort of struggled with the notion of dressing up like a "cowboy" but decided what the heck. It is time to enter my second childhood. I just hope like heck my actual cattle ranching relatives don't find out.

Seriously, I want to shoot, I want to have fun, and did I mention the people I encountered the last time were terrific. One of the things that impressed me was their emphasis on safety while still having a good time. If I can get my wife interested....

alacharger · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2009, 05:08:26 PM »

I'm a SASS member...have been for almost 5 years now. Do yourself a favor and don't rush out and buy anything until you've attended a match. Go visit with a match. Bring eye and ear protection, if you've got it...most clubs can supply it if you don't. (I know mine can, I'm the one who buys ear plugs and glasses!) Go and mingle...ask questions. Get opinions. Most SASS members will run over themselves to help a new shooter...lending leather, guns, ammo, even hats and such, if needed.

As far as the .38 vs .45 debate...it's personal choice, plain and simple. As Lazarus Longshot posted, part of it comes down to simple economics. .38s are cheaper to buy or load than .45 Colt. .45 Colt is about $25 to $35 for loaded ammo, and you'll typically need two boxes for a monthly match.

A few people are not capable of withstanding the recoil of a .45 Colt and choose .38 special or even .32 S&W Long to combat pain from arthritis or injury. We have one elderly shooter in our club that shoots .22's that are normally reserved for juniors because of his arthritis.

Some people like the authenticity of the .45 Colt. Some shoot cap and ball revolvers with black powder or substitutes. Some shoot modern cartridge guns with black powder loaded cartridges in them. We use pump, double barrel and lever action shotguns. For rifles, we use Marlin '94s, Winchester '92s and '94's, as well as '73's, 66's and Henry's. Our handguns are made by Ruger, Colt, Taurus, and Uberti.

Go to a local match and enjoy. I did in 1994, and have never regretted it.

My recommendation is to go to a local shoot the first time just to enjoy yourself and to learn.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2009, 03:50:03 PM »

Thanks for the advice. I went to a match last year and really enjoyed it. I watched and had a great time. I really want to try it myself.

The debate between 357 and 45 does boil down to whether my old hands can take fifty rounds of 45 recoil. I don't think it is going to be a big problem for me, but I do want to try a few rounds out of a 45. A friend of mine has said that he would lend me his pair of old style Vaqueros in .44 (shooting .44 special) for a few matches until I decide. He dropped out of cowboy shooting because of arthritis but says he won't sell me his matched Vaqueros for any price.

The first match of the new year is March 1--the local club canceled tomorrows shoot. Something about some football game or other. So right now I am pretty much dying in anticipation. I have lined up a gun shop that will get any equipment I need in pretty short order. The handgun choices seem to be between Colt clones and Ruger new Vaqueros. The Rugers could be expected to double as woods carry guns. For that reason I am looking at stainless.

Rifles choices seem to boil down to one of the M-92 clones or a Marlin cowboy rifle, and a 24 inch barrel versus a 20 inch barrel. My friend likes the longer barrel for cowboy shooting. The 20 inch carbine seems to make the most sense to me. It would also be real nice to find a cowboy rifle that would fire both 454 Casull and 45 lc. That would make it a pretty decent brush gun during deer season. Sadly the 454 Casull M-92 rifles from Puma have the wrong sights for cowboy shooting. My brother just bought one of the new Marlins with an octagonal barrel in 357. He loves it. It was a little pricey compared to the M-92 clone.

There seem to be three shotgun choices. First is a coachgun. EMF has a new manufacture model 1878 from China. A second choice is a Win Model 1897 pump. Again a clone makes sense, although another friend of mine had an opportunity to buy an original the other day, but passed because he didn't know I was interested. The third choice might be a model W87 lever action. I have seen a few of those. All in all I am most attracted to the coachgun, but I realize both the pump and lever actions are faster.

As you can tell I am just a little beyond mild interest. My intention is to give it a year to see if I like it. It is really hard to wait until March 1st, but I guess that is what I will do. Who knows.

alacharger · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2009, 06:17:33 PM »

Ron,

If you reload your own ammo, taming the recoil down is not that big a deal. Drop from a 250 grain bullet in the .45 Colt to a 200 grain, or even a 180 or 160 grain, and reduce the powder accordingly. You can make the .45 Colt quite bearable that way.

If you don't reload, the .38 special may indeed be your best bet.

Stainless handguns are great. I started with blue/color case hardened (what Ruger calls that paint job) and quickly learned to regret it. I now have three sets of stainless guns, .357 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt. I have one pair of blued birdshead Rugers, a pair of the Millennium phosphate finish Uberti Cattleman, and a pair of blued Pietta 1851 Navy revolvers. The blued ones stay in the safe most of the time.

Marlin 1894s are great rifles, as are the '92 clones. I have one Marlin '94, and one Rossi '92. I have four Uberti 1873's, two .45 Colt, one .44-40, and one .357 magnum. I prefer the '73, but it is far and away more expensive. Expect to spend $800 to $1000 for a new in box one, and around $1200 for one "slicked and short stroked". Marlin or '92 (or a '94 Winchester or pump like the Thunderbolt) only in B-western, but you can shoot the '73 in all categories.

The 1887 shotgun (lever action one) is real big on style points, but slow. I have one, and use it only when I'm really playing and don't care about scores or speed. You can shoot it in every class, but can only load two rounds at a time to compete with the doubles.

Actually, you have two choices in a double. First is a hammered double, which you can shoot in any class you want. Second is a slick back, a hammerless double. You can shoot that in every class except classic cowboy. And don't discount speed with a double. The unofficial world records for both hammered and hammerless doubles is less than four seconds for four shots fired on target.

The '97 is a favorite of mine. Right now, I have four...three originals and an IAC that was tuned by Coyote Cap. You can only load a maximum of two at a time in the '97 also.

Great to see you so interested. If you were in North Alabama, I'd invite you to tomorrow's match, and we would waive the shooters fee for you as a first time shooter.

Good luck, pard.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2009, 03:13:47 AM »

Thanks again for the encouragement. As I said in another thread my brother and I used to own an original Winchester 1873 manufactured sometime before 1880. Sadly many years ago, in a fit of youthful foolishness, my brother traded it for some double action revolver. When my brother picked up his Marlin a couple of weeks ago the gun dealer looked up the current value of an original 1873. In the condition of our old rifle is worth over 20 thousand dollars.

Although we we were young our father stepped in and told us that before firing the old gun we needed to have it checked out by a local gunsmith. He told us to use either black powder or some really light smokeless 44-40 hand loads he whipped up. I remember shooting that 1873 with his light hand loads. Great for plinking, but my brother and I were young and he really wanted something with a magnum punch. I have been trying to remember if he paid me for my 1/2. He says he did, but I'm not so sure.

I do reload so you have pretty much answered my question about 357 v. 45. I want to play the game for fun and 45 Colt is the classic cowboy caliber.

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2009, 04:12:19 AM »

Recoil? What recoil? If you use factory CAS level .45 colt ammo in a Ruger or Colt clone there is no recoil it's about like shooting a rimfire really. Now if you load it up with BP or max it out you get recoil. I used Hornady and Black Hills CAS loads supplied to me by both at no cost to me at that time and really felt it was so tame on recoil it just wasn't a concern.

Granted I have often fired 500 or more full strength .44 magnum rounds per day and close to half that of .454 Casull full power loads but to me the CAS level .45 Colt loads just seem to have hardly any recoil.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2009, 11:09:58 AM »

You all have convinced me. Forty Five it is.

Why do most of the top "gamers" shoot .38 special?

alacharger · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2009, 04:49:15 AM »

Quote from: Ron Byers on February 01, 2009, 11:09:58 AM

You all have convinced me. Forty Five it is.

Why do most of the top "gamers" shoot .38 special?

Speed and cost. Less recoil, shoot faster. Cheaper to reload, shoot more.

Lazarus Longshot · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2009, 04:26:32 PM »

The top shooters may be shooting upwards of 50,000 rounds per year. .38s are cheaper! You can download the .45 to ridiculously low levels, so recoil really isn't an issue.

As far as the .454 Casull Puma '92, I have one that Nate Kiowa Jones set up for me with new sights, action job, etc. If you haven't heard of him, he's the acknowledged expert on '92s. He can also order you a rifle at a discount, and slick it up for you, change out the sights, all before you get the gun. Here's his website http://www.stevesgunz.com/ . Tell him I sent you, and he won't add more than 20% to the price

.

You will have to load your .45s a bit longer to feed properly in that gun, and it will take some experimenting to find the right combination of length and bullet shape. I've been there, but now mine runs .45s just fine. Each rifle is different. I would not recommend it if you don't reload.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2009, 02:39:10 PM »

Thanks. I have read that Puma doesn't recommend running 45 Colt through a 454 Casull even though you can. The feeding problems can be difficult. I'll give Steve's Guns a long look. Thanks again.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2009, 08:13:13 AM »

Davidson's price for Vaqueros is about $30 bucks less than Bass Pro. Does any body have any experience with them? Are they reputable? Is there a cheaper source?

alacharger · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:00:13 AM »

Are you talking about Davidson's Gallery of Guns? The online site with the gun genie to look up different models and their availability?

If so, they are distributors, not retailers. Davidson's will not sell to individuals, but will sell to a dealer in your area. Typically this is one of your local gunshops.

Davidsons offers a lifetime warrantee on Ruger firearms, but you have to buy it through a retailer they sell to.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2009, 11:24:11 AM »

I have a retailer that works with them. My concerns are about price and that lifetime guarantee.

Lazarus Longshot · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:50:48 PM »

Hi, Ron,
Davidson's is a highly reputable firearms distributer. I haven't personally used their lifetime guarentee, but I would have faith in it. Of course, with Rugers, you have Ruger standing behind the firearm, too.

Davidson's has enough clout that Ruger, among others, has made special runs of firearms for them that you couldn't get anywhere else.

As far as price, I have used their pricing through a local dealer and have felt good about the deal. I have also talked with a dealer that said he would give me a better deal if I worked directly with him. I'd suggest you research prices in your area. By the way, I have found that the "big box" shops (Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, etc.) rarely have the best firearms prices.

alacharger · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2009, 01:53:08 PM »

I bought one of the 50th anniversary single sixes a few years ago through Davidson's website when they were not yet stocked at the local gunshops. I was completely satisfied with the deal, and felt I got a reasonable price, and quick delivery.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2009, 07:07:37 PM »

Lazarus Longshot,

Thanks for the intro to Nate Kiowa Jones. I had a great talk with him the other day. I think I am going to buy a Rossi model 92 for him to slick up. (He will order it and drop ship it to my FFL, and the FFL will "sell it" to me all for a pretty good base price.) When the date to do the action job comes up on his calendar (about 5 months) I will ship it to him for his work including such other options as I deem appropriate. He sort of prefers his customers to use the stock rifle a little before he gets his hands on it. That way the customer understands just how much his work improves the rifle's function. That kind of confidence is very reassuring.

Oh, I forgot to mention I joined SASS the other day. I don't know if I have gotten the alias I requested yet. My wife saw a charge to SASS on the statement and called to find out if I was frequenting some sort of strip club. She found out that SASS means the Single Action Shooting Society and told the person on the phone "ok, at least he isn't putting dollar bills in g-strings."

Bart Solo · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2009, 02:03:00 AM »

I bought my first guns yesterday. I told my son about my interest in cowboy shooting. I told him about Davidson's and the rest. He looked at me and said, "Dad call Kevin." Kevin is one of his closest friends. My son, Kevin and I went on a church mission trip to Mississippi after Katrina to help folks down there rebuild. I had forgotten Kevin is also an FFL. I thought of him as being a solid church going young man who does real good construction work. I called him and he got me an outstanding deal on a matched pair of stainless steel Vaqueros in 45 Colt. If you are in the Lee's Summit, MO, area and in need of an FFL who is a really good guy call Kevin. His little website is www.kcarms.com . I am sorry GB if I just violated some rule.