How to ruin a fine bronze mountain howitzer

[cannonmn]

Just polish the He!! out of it like this guy did.  He threw away tens of thousands of dollars when he did that, and I'm afraid not many collectors would be interested now.  I wouldn't be interested at half that price (if I had the money that is!)  Scroll down to the shiny howitzer.

http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/c0004.html

[Double D]

John, that is horrible.

A question for you about bronze guns. How were the barrels finished.  I know the iron guns were painted black.

But I don't beleive the bronze guns were polished.  I also don't believe there we just allow to tarnish. How were they finished?
   

[cannonmn]

But I don't beleive the bronze guns were polished.  I also don't believe there we just allow to tarnish. How were they finished?
   

That's an area that could use more research.  My comments have to do with "what to avoid" as a collector, to preserve the maximum value of an old bronze gun for the majority of collectors.  Unless it has bright green, powdery bronze disease, which requires special means to stop, generally today one should only clean the dust off and keep it waxed with something like bowling alley wax.  That's all I do with my bronze barrels, keep 'em waxed.  That helps keep them from getting bronze disease.

Back when, in military organizations where they were used, the matter of the care of a bronze gun was sometimes addressed in regulations manuals.   I've read one USN manual ca. Civil War that forbids "brightening" of bronze barrels.

Beyond that, it probably varied with the country and the branch of service.

If anyone has documented evidence one way or the other, I'd like to be educated, I don't mind admitting I don't know.

[GGaskill]

My experience with the military (active duty 1968-1972) was that anything made of brass in the organization that had the potential of being decorative was Brassoed for inspections, moreso if the inspecting agency was more important, with the maximum amount of polishing for IG inspections.  So any bronze piece that was held as a decoration was probably missing most barrel markings by the 1970's from all of the polishing it had endured.

[Victor3]

 GGaskill - That reminds me of something my Dad told me...

 He said that when he got out of the Navy after WWII, he felt that if he never saw another piece of brass it would be too soon!

[cannonmn]

So any bronze piece that was held as a decoration was probably missing most barrel markings by the 1970's from all of the polishing it had endured.

Unfortunately that's true for a few historic pieces I know about.  There's a 12 pdr. heavy boat howitzer, pre-CW or CW vintage, at the San Deigo Naval Hospital that's been polished quite smooth.  Two of the rare 24-pdr. Dahlgren boat howitzers at the Naval War College have been smooth for quite a few years, but some local Navy engineers did something magical and scientific to recover the marks, or images of them anyway.  Tragically, they've retired, we don't know their names, and the Naval War College museum has no record of how it was done, apparently they didn't ask.  There[s one of only about 9 known King howitzers at the US Naval Station, Annapolis MD that's also lost most vestiges of its markings.  I tried to tell 'em they should abandon the daily polishing but unfortunately I wasn't in their chain of command, so it was like talking to the wall.

The good news is that since the totally-invisible marks on the Newport pieces were imaged and 100% recovered by some technical magic, the same thing can be done for the others IF we can find out how it was done.  I'd work with the Naval Historical Center to get it done on the few pieces that need it, but I have to find the method first.

[Max Caliber]

In front of St. Frances Barracks, Florida National Guard headquarters, located at 82 Marine Street in St. Augustine are three very polished 12-pdr field howitzers, model of 1841. It's sad to see how worn they look from all the polishing. They have left the faces of the trunnions unpolished however.



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[cannonmn]

Tx for pic of the field howitzer.  I found two of them listed in Olmstead's FIELD ARTILLERY WEAPONS OF THE CIVIL WAR.  One is an Alger, dated 1861, weight 782 lbs.  Another was made by Greenwood, has registry no. 74, date 1861, and weight 779.  This is all true if Ed's "St. Augustine FL" entries correspond to the Guard HQ and not elsewhere.  The other one might be listed in the book but if so I missed it.  If you live in the St. A. area, you might stop in and talk to the Sgt Major of the Command (?) who I met there last year, and see if he has any records of the marks.  If they can hire a scientist to recover all the marks that would be a good thing to do.  Maybe someone at the University of Florida would take it on as a project.

[Max Caliber]

Cannonmn, One of the three howitzers is unmarked and is assumed to be Confederate.

Max

[cannonmn]

One of the three howitzers is unmarked and is assumed to be Confederate.

Thanks for the info.  I wouldn't assume it is Confederate just because marks can't be found.  If you look at the Olmstead book pp. 83-84 he describes the Confederate field howitzers and how they should be marked.  Most of the survivors show similar and fairly extensive marks, such as (for the Tredegar-cast ones) "JRA&Co., T.F." on the right trunnion, the year on the left trunnion, and foundry number on the upper muzzle face.  There are 18 survivors of 42 cast.  There were also a couple of other Confederate foundries that cast some of this model before production of them ended in 1862.

Olmstead's FIELD ARTILLERY WEAPONS OF THE CIVIL WAR is a necessary part of the library if you are interested in the details of Civil War artillery.

[Squire Robin]

Just polish the He!! out of it like this guy did.  He threw away tens of thousands of dollars when he did that, and I'm afraid not many collectors would be interested now. 

Looks alright to me, if that's an original carriage it's in amazing condition, someone has loved it.

OTOH, is that a solder line holding the trunnion on? 

Did they really do that?

[cannonmn]

I don't think there's anything unusual about the trunnion, that "line" is probably just some surface pattern left by the casting process.

[GGaskill]

Tragically, they've retired, we don't know their names, and the Naval War College museum has no record of how it was done, apparently they didn't ask.

It may have been a variation on the procedure used to recover missing serial numbers on small arms for forensic identifications.  Here is one example; this is a paper discussing gold and silver objects.

[and7barton]

In the Rotunda at the Woolwich Artillery Museum, they've got Queen Victoria's Gun Train and they've done the same to the barrel on that item - You can see your reflection in it. The museum staff evidently think it's fine to do that !

[rampa room artillery]

 lets talk about hte limber chest. from what i can find the limber that would have gone with that gun would have had two small pack/praire boxes on the limber. am I wrong? I am looking at building a limber for my 2.25 mountian rifle.

rick bryan
3rd va co B

[dan610324]

oooohhh thats nice

lets buy some brasso and do that to all old original barrels we can find 
sorry guys I couldnt resist it 

ok serious again
this painting is from 1704
I would say that they obviously didnt polish the bronze guns .

[RocklockI]

Well , my opinion is that the 1841 is ....Magnificent  !

I can't help it The Marine Corps has me absolutely convinced that the only good brass is ......yep shiny brass.

IF you polish the stuff you need to keep the lines and finish straight . Patina will "grow" back ...I guess .

I understand the objections . But ,If I owned a Bronze gun it would shine . I'll stick to repos ...for now. Like I can afford even a bronze repo . I'd love to find a 2/3 scale congrave 3lb on a grasshopper . That was anything close to affordable . Maybe a swivel at some point .

rocklock

[p51]

The horse soldier is an amazing place. I used to hit G-burg often when i was stationed at Aberdeen and I always walked around that store and marvelled at all the stuff I could never hope to afford. But being a store, they don't turn stuff away because someone's nose will turn up a little!

My experience with the military (active duty 1968-1972) was that anything made of brass in the organization that had the potential of being decorative was Brassoed for inspections, moreso if the inspecting agency was more important, with the maximum amount of polishing for IG inspections.  So any bronze piece that was held as a decoration was probably missing most barrel markings by the 1970's from all of the polishing it had endured.

Yeah, just like the 6 odr MaxCaliber posted, you see this on active posts often. Every time I had to TDY to some backwoods CONUS armpit post I always went around to see what tubes I could find (tanks too, but that's another subject). I never found one that wasn't polished all to heck. At Ft Lewis, they have two gorgeous Spanish 24 pounders on some halfway decent (repro of course) wood naval-looking carriages of questionable accuracy. Those tubes are polished just like Max's example is. You can almost smell the polish from the road as you drive by them. The really sad thing is I have seen photos of them around the WW2 era and you can see markings on them in the photos that are nowhere to be found now! 

[Victor3]

I understand the objections . But ,If I owned a Bronze gun it would shine . I'll stick to repos ...for now. Like I can afford even a bronze repo . I'd love to find a 2/3 scale congrave 3lb on a grasshopper . That was anything close to affordable . Maybe a swivel at some point .

rocklock

 I'm with ya rocklock. Pass the brasso!

[Max Caliber]

More pics. Not the best pics because I had to take them early in the morning.

Max

[RocklockI]

What a neat little(?) mortar Victor3 ! 

[Squire Robin]

Talking of polishing. After WW1 in the UK the next of kin got a large bronze medallion with the fallen soldier's name stamped deeply on it. They are called Death plaques, about 6" round and a quarter inch thick. By the 1950's when I arrived and discovered what they were, it was a bit scary just how many of the old folk had them on display. Most of the names had been lovingly polished off.

[Victor3]

What a neat little(?) mortar Victor3 ! 

http://www.corkmortar.com/

 

[Double D]

Ah yes, my lovely Marine Corps obsession with polishing brass...lets see a copper ground rod and it copper wire  leading from the electrical panel in a quonset hut.  Like Mess duty it builds character, oh yes it sure does...don't get me started.

Ornamental brass or copper I can see, but when the obsession strays to destroying valuable historical or cultural property its border line criminal.

 

[RocklockI]

As I recall 90mm recoilless rifle brass ,otherwise known as "The Gas Alarm" was fair game (WAY!) .

More time was spent keeping the things shiny than one would ever guess . Proly 20 years being shined up for a piece of brass that could have just as easily ended up as a fishbowel or wok .

BUT It was the right thing to do      Semper Fi !