hardcast vs expanding bullets

[TScottO]

When dealing with rifle bullets we hear a lot about proper bullet selection. Some people want complete penetration while others want a full expanding bullet to release all of its energy inside the animal.

How bout with handguns? I've have seen many a threads with people taking opposite sides of the fence with handgun bullet selection. Do you want full penetration with large calibers with the entrance and exit hole being almost the same or do you want a 45 or 475 cal entrance and a 60 cal exit hole creating a larger wound channel? Many handgun hunters say to shoot for bone to break them down but when you consider the size of a bone you would need to have exact bullet placement under hunting conditions. I shoot good groups but I wouldn't count on being able to hit a shoulder bone under hunting conditions.

I'm not convinced on which approach to use, hard cast or expanding bullets. For now I'm going to use hardcast because that seems to be the majority rule from experience but it's hard for me to see if you could get a clean pass through with an expanding bullet that it would not be better than with a hardcast bullet. For the areas I hunt the largest deer I will come across will be 220#'s or less.

Would those of you with experience give me your ideas and thoughts on why hardcast is better than jacked expanding bullets or vice versa?

Do hard cast bullets take away some of the margin of error due to lack of expansion?

People also seem to take the approach that you can take a less opportune shot due to shooting hardcast because you are most always guaranteed full penetration. But on broad side shots there isn't a lot of bone to hit so do you aim at the shoulder or do you aim farther back in the bottom 1/3 low so they will bleed out faster?

I know these are a bunch of uncertainties in my mind. I invite you all to give me your ideas on bullet placement and types of bullets and why you chose them.

Scott

[Jeff Vicars]

Use a Nosler Partition, Barnes XPB or a Swift A-Frame and you can have both penetration and expansion. IMO a bullet needs to exit, why not have it exit with a larger hole. I have used these bullets on elk, hogs, deer, antelope, exotics, and black bear and they are as good as it gets.

[Zeus]

How big do you really want?  Most rifles start out in the .30 range and strive for the .45-.5 range.  With a 44 or 45, you are already at that size almost.  A 45 caliber hole in and out will do just fine.  Any expansion that you get is a plus as long as it exits in my opinion.  GS

[jhalcott]

TS, how hard are you talking about? A wheel weight bullet,linotype or a mix of both.Linotype is around 22bhn,straight wheel weight goes about 9bhn.#2 alloy runs about 15 bhn.9pounds ofW W and 1pound of50/50 bar solder makes 10 pounds of #2 alloy.  4pounds linotype,5 pounds pure lead and 1 pound of 50/50 bar solder does the same. I do not like using pure lino for less than 40 caliber bullets for hunting.It won't expand and is way too expensive for the purpose.#2 alloy has killed every animal on the north American continent.Plain old wheel weight slugs work great IF the speed is moderated accordingly.
   A .40 or larger slug can be cast of linotype and be VERY successful BECAUSE it pokes a bigger hole THRU the game .They do NOT depend on expansion to do the work for them.
 In short ,use a #2 alloy,a good lube and a heavy for caliber slug. Then get your freezer ready.    jh :lol:

[crawfish]

Been a handgun only hunter since 1989. Started with a S/W 657 with Sierra/Speer 170g and 210g stuff killed a passal of deer with them. Since I have mobility problems I have always placed my bullet in the front shoulder just a bit below center of body. At the range I set as my max and for the mostly small deer here in the south I never recovered a bullet, always got pass theough. THEN I DISCOVERED PIGS!!! :eek:  Becasue of a large sow that didn't really believe it was dead I started looking for something different. Asked questions, asked for help from some people whom I figured would know and decided to try heavy for caliber cast stuff in my .41s'. I haven't looked back since and I haven't had a hog decide that it wasn't REALLY dead. BTY it isn't hard to "break down" an animal with a low front shoulder shot. If you can wait you get both shoulders. Even if you miss the bone (you won't with that POA) you take out everything that comes off the top of the heart plus everything going to the lungs. Of all the animals I have killed with handguns all but one (that sow) dropped where they stood or within a hand's reach from there. The only difference now is that I don't have to guess if my ammo is up to the task when loaded with the hardcast bullets. I know they will work on anything out there. Have killed 5 very large beast (600-2200LBS) with a .41/250g WFNGC from CPBT in a .41RemMag didn't recover any of those bullets.
When I was shooting long guns I used to load Barnes Xs' in everything and I now find that the cast stuff I load kills like the Xs' did. Can't explain but once you see the kill you'll see the difference.

[TScottO]

Jhalcott,

I'm shooting 410gr wfngc from Cast Performance. Their website says these bullets are 18-21 bhn. A +1200fps load hitting a 2.5" thick steel gong at 250 yards disintegrates this bullet down to the 2nd lube groove from the base. These bullets don't deform what so ever they chip and break when impacting steel.

I shot a hog and never recovered him using hardcast. The bullet placement was square in the shoulder muscle. My hunting partner witnessed the shot. We couldn't believe we never recovered the hog or found blood. After doing some research on hog anatomy it seems that hogs vitals are farther back from their shoulder muscle than I had thought. The next time I get an opportunity at a hog, if a broad side shot is all I can get, I'm going to shoot about 2 or 3 inches behind the muscle crease and in the lower 1/3 of his body. This is the first animal bigger than a squirrel that I've lost. It's an awful unsettling feeling.

It seems to me that with hardcast bullets it's better to have more tissue to shoot through than a broad side shot offers. Some sort of angling shot would be more suited for hard cast...I think.

Scott

[Lloyd Smale]

I use nothing but cast in my hunting loads. First animals are funny. Ive withnessed good hits with a 300 mag that lost animals. Cast bullets will shoot through an animal and in most cases leave a good blood trail. Weve done alot of penetration test and even the premium bullets like the  beartooths and partitions still only will give about half the penetration of a good cast bullet. The best alloy weve found at handgun velocities is 5050 ww and lyno. or something equivilent that will test out at between 16 and 18 believe me that alloy will shoot through alot at 1200 fps. Simular loads to yours int he .475 have killed everything in the world EVERYTHING. so your not undergunned on pigs thats for sure. My pig load is a 400lfn or keith at abut 900fps. That load will take care of anything under 1000 pounds. My thoughts on handguns is that if your using something .41 or bigger you allready have the expansion taken care of. Expansion in game at handgun velocites is iffy anyway and all it usually does is cause a bullet to vere off course or at the least drastically reduce penetration.

[Mikey]

TScott0:  I prefer the hardcast with the largest metplat I can obtain for that caliber.  If I can place one into the vital bone structure, the shoulder or pelvic girdle, it should have sufficient to break that bone structure and anchor the animal.  It is very disturbing to lose an animal.  

But, if you do not hit something immediately vital it won't matter what the bullet shape or construction is, the animal may run anyhow.  I prefer the shoulder girdle - breaking that up usually breaks the spine in the process and that's it for the animal.  It's very nice to have a steady shot rest and know where the bullet will impact, which is why people advise not to shoot if you have any doubts about it.  

Expanding nose bullets may not always drive straight through to the vital areas and create the damage they are supposed to do. Angled impact on major bone will easily deflect a bullet like that just enough to cause it to miss the vitals and allow the game to escape.  Hardcast, and especially square shouldered bullets are more likely not to do that but they do.  

I surely do not like to entertain the idea of going in deep after a large, injured, predatory critter, which is why I prefer not to hunt them but will be prepared to deal with them if I have the unhappy experience of encountering them.  I think that is why I prefer the hardcast and in particular, the square shouldered shape, if I can use it in my rifle/pistol.

jhalcott: I have used Linotype in the past and found it to be great bullet material.  II didn't know it was that expensive now.  I used to call local print shops and ask if they had any they wanted to dispose of and they always sounded glad just to give me a couple of 5 gallon buckets full so they didn't have to truck it away somewhere.  I would 'sweeten'  the lino a bit with more lead to bring the drop weight up to expected weight but even then those things were hard enough to drive nails.  I haven't used Linotype in a while but print shops still use it and that is the first place I would contact.   It seems as though folks who cater to specialty interests know how to raise the cost on something that may be found at a less expensive cost elsewhere.  There is nothing in the printing process that contaminates the Brindel quality of lino as there might be if you were to use used wheelweight.    Hope this helps.  Mikey.

[TScottO]

Thanks for your input so far. You all have been very helpful. Just a couple more questions though:

Would your choice of shot placement be swayed depending on which type of bullet design, hardcast vs expanding? If so, how come?

Due to my limited experience of shooting big game with handguns I’m under the impression that shooting through as much of the body as possible, hitting vitals of course,  is a better shot as opposed to a squared up broad side shot. Am I incorrect in thinking this way?

I guess a better way to ask this question is for you all to tell me your favorite shot placement on a deer. Be it an angling shot from the rib cage to the front off side shoulder, or angling from the front onside shoulder back towards the liver through the body, or broad side lower 1/3 right through the center of the shoulder muscle etc...

It's also hard to track a downed animal if there is no blood such as where I hit my hog. Where do you shoot for blood?

I for sure don’t want to pass up a good shot out of ignorance nor do I want to take a bad shot out of ignorance.

Thanks again and keep your replies coming.

Scott

[crawfish]

TScottO
Due to injuries in a 1989 accident there were a number of problems I had to address in order to continue hunting. First was the issue of long guns. I couldn't use them at all. My very first though was to just quit (I would have died). My doctor suggested handguns (light came on). Since I knew nothing about handgun hunting I jumped in blind and made the mistake :eek:    :-D of getting a S/W 657 in .41RemMag (OH THE HORROR OF IT). So I had the means now I needed the procedure. Been a farm boy most of my life execpt for the time I served in the USN so I knew what caused animals to die, knew about the structure of animals, knew where things were on the inside so all that was taken care of. My biggest remaining problem was that I had very limited mobility (things are much better now) so I had to have a means of putting animals down in their tracks. I couldn't follow a blood trail no matter how good. I decided that I would shoot for the front shoulder and aim a bit less than mid-line. My intent was to "break the animal down", to keep it in place. I also decided then and there that I wouldn't shoot unless the animal was standing in such a way so I could shoot through both shoulders, and at bow hunting ranges (-40 yards). Late '89 and all of 1990 was uwsed to re-learn many thingsand I didn't hunt until the 1991-92 season. Killed my first and best deer on Dec 31, 1991, one shot at 18 yards from about 5 feet lower elevation than the deer. I was using what was to become my hunting load of a Sierra 210g JHP Power Master over 19.5g of 2400. IT WORKED GREAT. The shot broke the left side Ulna right at the ball and socket ranged through the chest and punched through the right shoulder blade and zinged off into the NC country side. When that deer was opened up it was readily apparent why it had droped where it stood. The front end inside was a mess. What the bullet hadn't destroyed the bone fragments had taken of. BTY we had to disgard about 2 pounds of shoulder meat that would have been uesd as burger anyway. For thr next 8 years that 210/19.5/2400 was my hunting load. It killed so many deer real dead real quick I have lost count (well over 100 between me and my sons). Never recovered a bullet.  During that period I started hunting hogs and began to notice a difference in results when the bigger hogs (250+lbs) were shot and things got down right dicey with really big hogs (300+lbs). In 1998 I had a dance with a 338lbs sow that got me looking for a better bullet. Went to 250g hardcast and the Reeder .41GNR#2. Got the Reeder in Aug 2000 but I didn't get a chance to even shoot it until NOV 2001 (remember I said things were better it was because of surgery in AUG 2000 six days after the barrel shows up). Since then the 250g WFN from CBPT has been my hunting bullet. Countless deer, goats, and six big pigs of 300 or more pounds have been killed with that bullet (by my 2 sons) no more problems with piggies not knowing they were dead. There have also been 5 really large animals killed by that bullet 600, 1200+, 2X1800+ and one huge beast of 2197lbs on my brother's slaughter house scale all, but one, were killed with shoulder POA and ever one of those bullets are out in the wilds somewhere cause they sure didn't stay inside. So that is how I started using the shoulder shot and why I still use it with hardcast bullets.

[Lloyd Smale]

if it bites back break its shoulders if not I lung shoot.

[Mikey]

TScott0:  Man, between the Crawfish and Lloyd Smale you have received the best advice I have ever read.  I print posts like that out and let some of my more 'know-it-all' hunting friends, including my brother the Right(eous) Rev his own self read them.  Nothing like accurate information from those who have been there to 'enlighten' those who think they have.

As with both Crawfish and Lloyd, I prefer to use cast bullets and I prefer sharp shouldered bullets and the wide flat noses to minimize deflection off bone.  Lloyd has posted some pictures of his cast bullets for the 444 and they sure are incredible.  One of these days I'm going to ask both Lloyd, and Harpy, if I could purchase some of each of their bullets and try them out in my rifles.  That would be a hoot.  Mikey.

[Bullseye]

In your original post you only mention deer hunting not hog hunting.  For deer a jacketed bullet will work fine.  I have never recovered a jacketed bullet from a deer because they have always penetrated completly and they have all died very quickly.

I do not aim with the intention of breaking a bone myself.  Why mess up a shoulder on a deer when they are not going far with a good heart lung shot.

And concerning whether you can take a marginal shot with one bullet type over the other, my opinion is to never take a marginal shot period.

[TScottO]

I'm goin to give hardcast bullets a chance this year. I've never killed a whitetail with a handgun. I've never killed a doe in my life. In the lease I joined it's a requirement to kill atleast one doe. I'm planning giving a test run as soon as I get a chance on an older doe to see how it goes.

Needless to say, I have big hopes. I shoot well enough and with what I've picked up on this forum I feel that I have gotten straght line on "where to's" and "Whats".... so well see...

I'm still undecided on which load. I've found a few that my gun really likes:

410gr WFNGC @ about 1000fps.

410gr WFNGC @ about 1200fps

410gr WFMGC @ about 1250fps

I found all of these from "Taffins Test"

All of these shoot really well in my gun up to 50 yards and ring the 250 yard gong pretty good too but I usually only hit it once out of 5 shots. I havent shot them for 100 yard accuracy at this point.

Man I need to buy a chrony!

Thanks everyone for all of you input. You have been a great help.

Scott

[TScottO]

Hello Bullseye,

Are there some shots that would be marginal for an expanding bullet that would not be marginal with a hardcast bullet or vise versa? I know this is an extreme example: but there are shots I would take on a deer with a 300 Win Mag that I wouldn’t take with a .243.

On these threads and forums we all hear a lot of things that should be taken like a grain of salt. There are those who really know then there are those who pretend. Being that I don’t have the experience and knowledge to filter the good from the bad on all of these things is the reason I asked that particular question.

A lot of people discuss full length penetration. Does this mean they will take a shot on a deer from the tail end and expect to go through the vitals because of the extreme penetration hardcast bullets provide when they would pass on the exact same shot because of an expanding bullet? This isn’t to say that I would take this shot because someone says it’s a good shot but I would like to know the full potential of what I’m shooting.

I hope this clears things up.

Thanks
Scott

[Lloyd Smale]

Bulseye Ive have personally withnessed a shot on a 700lb red stag that was shot with a 50 alaskan with a 480lnf that did infact give total penetration IT was that shot or go home without a trophy on a paid hunt. On the same hunt I witnessed another friend shoot a jackted bullet out of a .375 winchester tc into another one broadside and hit it in the vitals 3 times and the bull just kept eating like it was a fly that was bitting him he casually walked away and fell 50 yards away. Never even gave a sign that he was hit.  Shocking power at handgun velocities just doesnt exist. Like was said a good jacketed bullet will take a deer without problem. But I wouldnt count on dropping any animal in its tracks with any gun. Handgun or rifle it happens no doubt. But id rather have a hole one both sides to leak blood so that the trailing is easier myself and a good hardcast handgun load will flat out penetrate any rifle load. Weve done enough testing to prove that beyond the shadow of a doubt. Even a good .41 mag hardcast load will outpenetrate a .458 mag wit premium jacketed soft nose bullets. In a perfect world I would never take a iffy shot at any animal. Hunting locally you couldnt pay me too but when you have $3000 invested in a hunt and you have one crack at a trophy going away its nice to know that your load is up to it if you are.

In your original post you only mention deer hunting not hog hunting.  For deer a jacketed bullet will work fine.  I have never recovered a jacketed bullet from a deer because they have always penetrated completly and they have all died very quickly.

I do not aim with the intention of breaking a bone myself.  Why mess up a shoulder on a deer when they are not going far with a good heart lung shot.

And concerning whether you can take a marginal shot with one bullet type over the other, my opinion is to never take a marginal shot period.

[HWooldridge]

It isn't a hot new round but I have shot a Old Model Ruger Blackhawk in .45 LC since the '70's and taken all manner of game with a 260 gr linotype Keith style bullet and 16.0 gr of 2400.  I also shoot a S&W Model 29 with 15.5 gr of Blue Dot and a 250 gr SAECO, also Keith style.  Both are extremely accurate but bullet placement is always the key no matter what kind of firearm is used.  I hunt hogs and deer in South Texas and have shot thru multiple animals without ever finding a bullet.  I think Keith figured out what worked a long time ago and the formula is fairly simple - stick to large calibers, cast bullets and big flat meplats, then practice enough to always hit where you aim.

To further illustrate the point, my 17 yr old son shoots a 41 mag with 4 in barrel.  He is an excellent rifle shot but has trouble with pistols and flinching.  He had a great deal of difficulty hitting anything even with mid-range loads so I made up some 220 gr Keith style hard cast bullets with 6.0 gr of WW231, which is a real "pop-gun" round.  His groups immediately tightened to about 3-4 inches at 20 yds and one afternoon, he killed a jack rabbit at about 30 yds with a shot to the head.  The jack never knew the bullet was probably only making about 700 fps of less.  His confidence level soared so his hit ratio is now much better than before.

[Questor]

HWooldridge:

YOU are a man after my own heart.  

One thing I like about big-meplat hard cast bullets is that they punch such a nice hole in the game.  You get a good blood trail with them.

I read one of the new books on handgun hunting by the guy who owns Show Me Safaris.  He claims that JHPs kill quicker than cast bullets. I suppose he ought to know because he's devoted his life to handgun hunting. (The book, by the way, is not worth buying unless you want a collection of unenlightening vignettes from his various hunts. I barely read it once.)

[HWooldridge]

Questor,

One of my favorite uncles, now passed on, used to hunt black bear in northern New Mexico over dogs using a .357 with JHP's.  He killed a few but also lost a couple after shooting them 4-6 times plus they carved up his dogs.  I convinced him to go to a Colt SAA 44 Special with a load using the 250 SAECO over 11.0 gr of Blue Dot (I really like Blue Dot because it doesn't seem to melt a plain bullet base - so no leading).  Uncle never lost another bear and his dogs suffered less because the bear was broken down quicker by the bigger bullet.  Even if not killed outright, they had less fight.

Last year, I killed a 220 lb hog with a 45-70 rifle and a 300gr JSP at about 125 yds.  He died instantly and the bullet mushroomed very nicely under the shield hide on the far side.  A friend of mine shot a similar sized hog with a 44 Redhawk from about 20 steps and the same thing occurred - instant kill but no exit.  You might call that good performance but the bullet did not leave two holes in either case.  The linotype bullets in the 45 LC always punch thru on a broadside shot at any reasonable range and the hogs are still just as dead.

[Questor]

HWooldridge:

I use a 44 magnum and went hog hunting once. It was great and it all worked out alright, but I had made the collosal mistake of using my home-cast bullets with relatively soft lead, #2 Lyman metal to casting buffs. The bullets deformed too much and didn't make it to the hide on the other side. Very disappointing, but that's what it took to convince me that hogs are not deer.  After that I resolved to use hard 275 or 300 grainers on hogs. I can't wait to go again.

[Zachary]

When using handguns, on deer I use expanding bullets.  On hogs, I tend to use cast bullets.  The only exception is my .480 Ruger.  I don't handload, and the only factory available bullet is the Hornady expanding bullet.  I used it on a small hog - under 40 pounds or so, and it worked fine.  Then again, a 40 pound hog isn't that big of a challenge anyway.

Zachary

[jhalcott]

TS ,would you take a going away shot at 200 yards with a 150 grain in the 300 mag? What about a Barnes 100 in the 243 at the same distance.? Add a hardcast 350 in a 45-70?
  The most penetration would be from the hard cast,next the 243.Every shot is different for different reasons. Would you take an iffy shot because it is the last day of your hunt and it's the 1st decent animal you've seen? Only you can answer that. An un filled tag is some thing to be avoided at all costs to some.
  As far as the loads you ask about, the one you can hit a paper plate every time at the range YOU set as MAX for YOUR abilities is the one to use.And the heart lung area of most animals is just that big!  jh

[ssmith_1187]

I just picked up a Ruger SRH in .44 mag and topped it with a Leupold 2X scope…I know it smacks of originality.

Anyway, I shot it for the first time on July 27th to primarily sight in the scope.  In addition to that, I also brought out several bundles of newspaper that I had soaked in water.  After I had the scope were I wanted it…….I shot 3 rounds into the newspaper at 25 yards.

The results are as follows (though the data is at home, the numbers are close)

Round 1:
Federal Premium, 240 grain Hydra-Shock JHP
Weight retention: 235.2 grains (98%)
Penetration: Approximately 9 inches

Round 2:
Federal Premium, 240 grain Hydra-Shock JHP
Weight retention: 230.4 grains (96%)
Penetration: Approximately 9 inches

Round 3:
Magtech, 240 grain SJSP
Weight retention: 225.6 grains (94%)
Penetration: Approximately 12 inches

I have pictures (though not as clear as I would have liked) of the recovered rounds and after having looked at the terminal performance of the 2 Federal rounds, I though, this IS going to be my hunting round of choice…excellent expansion and capable of delivering 550 ft. lbs. of energy at 100 yards.  

Then I read this thread…and am now torn.  I plan on hunting only Whitetails with this setup, though I would love to try hogs one of these days, there just aren’t too many in the northern/central parts of Illinois.  

I would have to think that a well-placed shot with the Federal round should drop the deer within 40 yards from where it stood.  It is a thin skinned animal and 9 inches of penetration into wet newspaper leads me to believe that as long as I DON’T hit the front shoulder…I certainly could go through and through even with a 240 grain JHP.

Am I incorrect in my thinking?

[Graybeard]

I've shot a bunch of deer with the .44 mag. Never yet recovered a bullet that weighted 240 grains when it started out whether JHP, JSP or cast and that includes hits to the shoulder.

GB

[Darrell Davis]

Hey there folks,

I think I have seen that Veral Smith (LBT) is back at it now. Seems I saw some info on the forum someplace.

Anyway, Get ahold of a copy of his book. Not only does he make great molds, but his writing makes sense.

One comment (thoughts from Veral) about the sharp shouldered cast bullets. Some folk think that the sharp shoulder will cut a full caliber hole through your game, BUT it seems that the tissue etc. coming off the meplat never allows the shoulder to do its cutting AND for that reason the need is for the largest possible meplat.

The full wad cutter is known for being a great killer (lots of energy transfer), however because its grouping abilities/energy rapidly go down hill on anything but the close shots we use the next best thing - a proven/tested bullet with the biggest meplat possible while still keeping a design that will keep em on the target and allow for the needed vel/energy.

Keep em coming! :wink: