30-06 or 300 Win. mag

[SHOOTALL]

magnum is misleading anyway , Advertising hype in most cases . if a 300 wm is a mag. because it offers more than a 3006 then if the 308 had come first the 3006 would have been a mag. ?

[corbanzo]

It's kind of like the .22mag.  The .220 swift isn't called a mag, but it has how many more times the power? 

I really think one of the real issues with these cartridges, is that the .30-06 is on the cusp of big bore recoil.  Once you start going above it, then you are talking about recoil that will throw a lot of shooters off.  I'm sure there are a lot of 30-30 shooters out there, who wouldn't have even as close to as quick follow up shots with a 30-06, and then a step above it, even worse.

So then, you have to ask yourself, is the ratio of power to weight and recoil really going to make YOU more of an effective shooter?

I mean, a 30-06, and a 300WM are going to knock the same animal down at 300 or 400 yards.  The only real difference is that you need to hold the -06 a couple of inches higher.

[Coyote Hunter]

My point was that over 400 yards, the .300 Win has ballistics slightly less the .300 Savage at 100 yards.

Actually, with Federal’s  .300 Savage loads and Federal’s 180g .300 Win Mag MRX load it is more like 500 yards versus 100 yards.

I don't know about you, but I think even on the most difficult hunts, I can stalk and hunt to within 400 yards for almost all game.  So any hunting conditions over 400 yards become moot, when talking about HUNTING.  If you want to target practice on game, as if you were a military sniper, so be it, but the hunter closes in on game and takes a clean killing shot. 

All hail the “ethical” hunter that kills his game at 399 yards, no matter how sloppily or how many shots it takes.

And piss on the grave of the “sniper” hunter that cleanly kills his game with one shot at 401 yards.

I think you get the idea.  The fact is it is not always possible to get closer and getting onto position for a 500 yard shot is not necessarily less work than getting into position for a 50 yard shot.  Further, shooting skills vary dramatically – some hunters work hard to perfect their skill and some do little or no work in that regard.  Some people are great shots at distances well over 400 yards and others couldn’t hit a car at that range.

The range isn’t as important to me as other factors.

The necessity for shooting any big game over 400 yards really doesn't exist for the sport hunter.  If you cannot get closer, then you should not take the shot and potentially wound the animal, which then suffers needlessly. 

The necessity for shooting at ANY range doesn’t exist for the sport hunter.  I’d rather a prepared hunter take a 500 or 600 yard shot than an unprepared hunter take one at almost any range.  No telling how many unprepared hunters have missed game at 100 yards, but I’ve seen it happen on more than one occasion.

If you can hit a deer size animal at 500 yards from a moving boat, every time, every shot, in exactly the spot you are aiming at, then yes maybe you can be called a hunter.  But winds, differences in the animals movement just as you shot during the time of flight, put too many variables into a clean kill on game at that range, even with a .300 Win mag. 

Wind and animal movement play a role at any range.  That said,  a well prepared hunter can always decide not to shoot if the wind is too great and it usually isn’t difficult to judge an opportune time to shoot based on observing an animal.  At 800 yards a 165g AccuBond launched at 3200fps from a .300 Win Mag has a calculated flight time of exactly 1.000 second.  An animal can move a surprising distance in that amount of time but by the same token they often are still for far longer periods, especially if they are not spooked.

Again, the range is not the most important factor to my way of thinking.

[kevthebassman]

Range does increase the number and severity of variables in a hunting situation, but I know of people who could make nearly any shot inside of 700 yards, and I also know of a few who have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn at 50 yards.  As for myself, any shot out of 200 yards better be standing still and in a calm wind.  I've made shots outside of those conditions, but if you ask me at what range I can kill every time, 200 yards would be my answer.  I think most hunters are in a similar skill range.

[Coyote Hunter]

key –

I agree completely about the skill of “most hunters”.  Over the years I’ve worked ‘Hunter Sight-in Days’ at the range and the low skill level of some hunters never ceases to amaze.  My problem with deltecs’ statement, however, is that he makes no allowance for the other end of the spectrum.  Just as there are many who do not learn to shoot well at any range there are a fair number who concentrate on doing well at extended ranges.  Furthermore, the effort placed into finding game and getting into a suitable shooting position is often independent of the range at which that position is found. 

Choosing an arbitrary range and applying it to everyone and every situation, 400 yards in deltecs’ case, only works if every situation is the same and everyone possesses the same equipment, knowledge and skill.

[victorcharlie]

IMO, when the range exceeds 300 yards the game changes significantly.......

Shooting any high velocity center fire rifle at 300 yards on deer size game requires a certain amount of practice but is something most can do.

Beyond 300 yards, IMO, bullet drop and wind become much more of a factor.......and requires much more practice to become proficient, no matter what cartridge your shooting......

[beemanbeme]

Yup! practice, practice, practice. And not, ego, ego, ego.

[lilabner]

I agree with victorcharlie. Things change in a hurry when the range passes 300 yards, no matter what cartridge you are shooting. Range estimation are tough when there are no man made objects around to use as points of reference. A laser rangefinder that will consistently range big game out to 500 yards is a help, but the less expensive finders aren't capable in some conditions beyond 300. Let's say you have a quality rangefinder ( I own one) and can take a solid rest. You are only half way to a solution if the wind is blowing. Check external ballistics tables and you'll find that wind drift isn't much of a problem until you get out to 300 yards but becomes a major problem as range increases. With an accurate range solution, bullet drop can be addressed. However, sideways wind deflection must also be calculated. How fast is that stiff prairie wind that is blowing against your cheek at a 90 degree angle to your shot?

[deltecs]

I think some have misinterpreted my posts or I've not written them clearly.  It is my point to say that beyond 400 yards as asked by parts man, was that there are many varibles that influence a bullets trajectory so that it is extremely difficult to accurately predict the bullets impact.  Wind drift, miss guessed distance, temperature affecting chrono velocity on the day of hunt, bullet drop, and animals movement during time of flight.  Yes, one can practice and train himself to shoot accurately at this range.  Yes, one can use a quality range finder to determine distance.  Yes, using a pet load will reduce errors outside of target intended.  If I'm capable of shooting a deer at 400 yards, will I walk away from one at 410 yards; NO.  This is not a bright line barrier.  I do a lot of shooting from a boat with it moving constantly.  I defy all those 500 yard shooters to hit a target at 300 yards from a boat, if you haven't ever practiced from one.  A rest does you no good, as the rest is moving with the boat in directions that cannot be compensated for by moving the rifle.  The range varies as the boat moves, so a range finder is not going to do much good.  The wind blows almost constantly across water in gusts, rather than steady breezes and is almost impossible to determine what it is doing at 500 yards.  These effects are also prevalent on land hunting.  Almost all of the time, when you see game at 500 yards, they can be shot much closer with a bit of hunting effort and reduce those variables to acceptable limits.

[Coyote Hunter]

…  I defy all those 500 yard shooters to hit a target at 300 yards from a boat, if you haven't ever practiced from one. 

Frankly, I can’t imagine attempting such a shot under any circumstances I am likely to encounter, practiced or not.  The reasons for my NOT taking such a shot are the same as my reasons for not taking long range shots in high wind or at unknown distances – the probability of reaching the desired outcome is not within acceptable parameters.

Some people might be able to make such a shot just as some people can reliably make shots on dry land that are well beyond my capability.  The point is that individual skills vary which is why sweeping statements about maximum range make little sense.  Shots are taken by individuals, not a composite ‘average’ hunter that exists only as a mathematical concept.

Almost all of the time, when you see game at 500 yards, they can be shot much closer with a bit of hunting effort and reduce those variables to acceptable limits.

Most times, yes,  Always, no.  Sometimes you must take the shot presented or take a pass.  When such a time comes, some people will be adequately prepared, others will not.

[beemanbeme]

I'd like to hear about some of these scenerios where you can't close closer than say 500 yards to a game animal.

My son hunted out of one of those elevated outhouses down in Texas when the wind would take the hair off a dog and he said it was pretty interesting.  I would imagine it would be somewhat like shooting out of a boat.... a matter of timing.

[deltecs]

Believe me, I don't take any shots from a boat at 300 yards.  But I do offhand at 150 yards with good success.

[Coyote Hunter]

I'd like to hear about some of these scenerios where you can't close closer than say 500 yards to a game animal.
 

There are many scenarios where time, terrain, weather, animal movement, property boundaries, season dates, pressure by other hunters and other factors act singly or together to prevent a hunter from closing on game.

Last fall one of the elk I shot would have been a 500-yard shot except another hunter on distant hill took several shots and turned the herd.  I ended up with a chip shot, but it could have gone the other way just as easily.  The year before we passed on a number of 500 yard opportunities which quickly became much longer opportunities due to pressure from other hunters.  Another time we simply ran out of daylight – it was only 100 yards and I chose not to shoot what may be the largest bull I’ve ever had in the crosshairs, but a couple seconds later it was gone for good.  Another time a herd was on the move and it was take the long shot or watch them cross the road into another GMU where my license was not valid, which is what I chose to do.  There have been a number of others over the years as well.

My longest shot to date has been 350 yards - got it off just before the end of legal shooting hours after watching the herd for 6 hours trying to figure out how to get closer than 600 yards.  The elk finally moved our way at dusk or I would have been empty-handed.

[jro45]

as far as i would say that the 300 win mag will have more power for longer shots but other then that the 30/06 could just about do any thing the 300 could do

[WyoStillhunter]

The old gunsmith was exactly right on every point IMO.

In this country today you have to sort out what is "marketing" and what is practical fact, what is want vs. need.  Then go from there.  Fear sells: fear that you are missing out on some little increment of potential.  Since almost none of us can put in the time it takes to become truly proficient based on field experience, we substitute daydreams and what-ifs for hands-on.  Then the marketing magicians have us!

In 99%+ of all riflemen the 30-06 possesses potential that goes unrealized.  Buying a magnum, whizbang gun gains even more unrealized potential at increased cost of money, noise, recoil, and for many folks, frustration.  Many, many riflemen would shoot better if they used a .300 Savage or 30-40 Krag over the '06, and especially compared to .300 WM and its kin.  I will admit that a very few skilled and well-practiced marksmen can wring out the potential of the magnums and do amazing things with them.  Very few, however, fit that mold.

Finally, we are truly blessed to live in a country that affords us the time and money to spend on such pasttimes as we do.  So let the debate rage on!

[kevthebassman]

If you've got the skill, discipline, time, and patience to take advantage of the .300 mag's extra performance, I think you could benefit from it.

For the rest of us, the '06 can make most any shot we have any business taking.  There isn't an herbivore that walks this continent that cannot be taken with the '06.