Grousing about new cartridges

[Coyote Hunter]

It never ceases to amaze me that folks grouse about new products or the excuses they have for their grousing.

When Marlin and Hornady introduced the .308 Marlin I compiled a list of the excuses people had for not liking it.  The excuses ranged from incredibly uninformed, ignorant (as opposed to stupid), naive and even downright stupid to moderately so, to a very few that were somewhat reasonable.  Not one of the excuses on the list I compiled withstood close examination and most failed the laugh test.

Granted, some new cartridge introductions are intended for niche markets and lack general appeal.  Hornady’s new 6.5mm Creedmoor is an example.    People complain it isn't going to do this or it isn't going to do that, but if they read the literature they would discover it wasn't intended for those markets to begin with.  I wouldn't take my F250 diesel to compete in the Indy 500, but it sure tows things nicely.

One of my favorite excuses goes to the tune of “They’re just trying to sell you something.”   Well, DUH!!!  One should also point out that “they” are trying hard to discover and deliver products that their customers want, in a manner that is profitable to the company.     If “they” fail to do so, “they” are soon out of business.  The flip side of this argument is “They’re trying hard NOT to sell you something.”  Now THERE’s a recipe for a successful business!

Here’s the list of excuses I compiled for the .308 Marlin.  With minor changes you hear the same excuses applied to the .204 Ruger, .375 Ruger, .30 TC, .338 RCM, .300 RCM, 6.5 Creedmoor, various .17’s  and other recent introductions. 


1.  Should have used a .7mm-Waters.
2.  Should have used a .7mmSTE.
3.  Should have used a 7.62x39.
4.  Should have used a .30-30AI.
5.  Should have used a .300 Savage.
6.  Should have used a .307 Win.
7.  Should have used a.33 Win.
8.  Should have used a.348 Win.
9.  Should have used a JDJ cartridge.
10.  Should have done a .50 Alaskan.
11.  Should have used a 20” barrel.
12.  Should have had a spiral magazine.
13.  Should have used a blued, octagonal 24” barrel.
14.  Forget the whole thing, it's D.O.A.
15.  Forget the whole thing, I can't operate the lever.
16.  Forget the whole thing, it's not readily available.
17.  Forget the whole thing, its got that stupid safety.
18.  Forget the whole thing, ammo will cost $40 a box.
19.  Forget the whole thing, too much recoil and noise.
20.  Forget the whole thing, I'd rather it was a .45-70 pump.
21.  Forget the whole thing, I already have long range rifles.
22.  Forget the whole thing, "i'm just too old & don't like change."
23.  Forget the whole thing, it solves a problem that doesn't exist.
24.  Forget the whole thing, just get a bolt gun in .308 Win or .30-06.
25.  Forget the whole thing, just get a bolt gun for your sniping needs.
26.  Forget the whole thing, if I want long range I’ll get a Sharps or Ballard.
27.  Forget the whole thing, someone will load it with regular spitzer bullets.
28.  Forget the whole thing, the .308 Marlin has not passed the test of time.
29.  Forget the whole thing, leverguns weren't intended to have such capabilities.
30.  Forget the whole thing, it won't do anything a .30-30 at the same pressures won't do.
31.  Forget the whole thing, if you buy one you are doomed to buying factory ammo forever.
32.  Forget the whole thing, "because I am too old to realize a gain in performance and value of this new caliber."
33.  Forget the whole thing, just get a Winnie in .307 or a Savage 99 or a Browning BLR or a Winnie/Browning 1895.
34.  Forget the whole thing, new Marlin rifles have a "cheapness" about them that precludes any interest in them as a whole.
35.  Forget the whole thing, the .308 Marlin Express "would NOT make a good Black Bear caliber.  Unless you are shooting Cubs."
36.  It must be a lie, you can't get .307 velocities from a smaller case withhout pressures higher than a .307.
37.  Should have just manufactured the Savage 99 under license.
38.  Why reinvent the wheel (.307 and Savage .300)?
39.  The ammo will cost too much.
40.  You can’t match factory ballistics.
41.  You can’t even match factory muzzle velocity.
42.  You can't get the brass.
43.  You can’t get the bullets.
44.  You can't get bullets in the same weight.
45.  You can't get the powder.
46.  You can't get the dies.
47.  The powders aren’t available so its really just a .30-30 XLR.
48.  Don’t like the way the XLR looks.
49.  Don't like Marlins, why should I like this one?
50.  The .30-30 can kill at 200 yards and beyond – what’s the point?
51.  The XLR will cost too much.
52.  2” groups at 200 yards is not match-grade ammo.
53.  Its just a scam by greedy companies to get your money.
54.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to improve the accuracy of ALL their rifles.
55.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to introduce novel/better open sights.
56.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to make periodic runs of guns chambered for obsolete cartridges.
57.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to introduce a ‘tactical’ 1894.
58.  Marlin should have spent their “finite resources” to introduce a pump-action .357/.44/.45.
59.  Sharp-pointed bullets don’t offer anything over RN or FN bullets, so what’s the point.
60.  Old timers figured if they could hit a piece of typing paper they were sighted in, why does Marlin need to be different?
61.  Most game is taken at 100-150 yards tops, why do we need something that reaches further?
62.  The .30-30 has taken Africa’s Big Five, why do we need anything else?
63.  You don’t need the extra energy the .308 Marlin provides as the .30-30 can kill a 200-pound deer at 230 yards.
64.  You don’t need the extra trajectory the .308 Marlin provides as the .30-30 can kill a 200-pound deer at 230 yards.
65.  The extra range of the .308 Marlin will just encourage people to take shots at ranges they shouldn’t attempt.
66.  I won’t buy a .308 Marlin because Marlin didn’t answer a letter I wrote them.
67.  The trend toward modernizing traditional designs is a waste of time – it can’t be done.
68.  You can’t use the .308 Marlin’s extra range without a scope, and scoping a levergun is just wrong.
69.  I won’t buy a .308 Marlin because Marlin won’t build rifles chambered for the obsolete cartridges I want – and I know two other guys that want them, too!

70. “If Marlin was going to make a .308, why couldn't they make a .308. “  Courtesy of 'jvs'.
 

The solution is so simple – if you don’t like a new product, DON’T BUY IT.  The market will sort things out quickly enough.

A woman at work once scolded me for buying a F250 diesel.  She thought I should have purchased a gas miser car instead.  I can just see me towing the Bayliner with a Volkswagen diesel Rabbit, or stuffing 4x8 sheets of whatever into a Rabbit’s rear hatch!  Different people have different needs.  She was a far-lefty from Boulder, CO, who had a very sheltered frame of reference.  It isn’t hard to find a similarly sheltered mindset at work when it comes to discussions about new cartridges.  People ignore manufacturing, business and/or market realities and insist that because a new product isn’t what THEY want, it has no merit.  But hey, it’s the USA.  People have a right to be stupid.

On the other hand, I do appreciate well-reasoned and persuasive arguments as to why a product isn’t what it could be.  Such arguments are just much harder to find.

[Foggy]

I like your style I feel the same way I think the hottest ticket s are the 308 Marlin & the 375 Ruger

[IOWA DON]

I was kind of negative on the new 6.5mm Creedmore as a hunting cartridge but maybe it will be great for target shooters. And I don't have any need for several of the other new cartridges, but think the .205 Ruger and .17 HMR filled big voids. In regards to the .205 Ruger, there is a big gap between .17 caliber and .22 caliber, as much proportionally as between .22 caliber and .270 caliber. My experience indicates a .17 Remington is not nearly as good for long range varminting as a .22-250, but a 50-grain .22 bullet is not needed for most varmints. My .17 Remington was a barrel fouler and barrel burner and the .204 Ruger is supposed to solve that problem. The .22-250 has enough recoil that watching hits through the scope is difficult and I understand that is not a problem with the .204 Ruger. I think the .17 HMR is a very good specialty cartridge for people who don't want to reload. It's significantly better than a .22 magnum for very small animals at longer distances. Lots of choices are probably good, but if they don't pan out there are some negatives. My 5mm Remington Rimfire became useless for hunting when Remington stopped making ammunition. I've not been able to find brass for my 7-30 Waters for a while, but at least can make it from .30-30 brass, but with the additional trouble and expense of having to fireform. The market for guns, ammo and reloading supplies is only so big. When new products are introduced it increases the likelihood existing products will go under. I remember when I had a 7mm Weatherby and the two best handloads I had for it became obsolete as Hornaday changed the shape of their 139-grain bullet for one and for the other, H450 powder was discontinued. Now I worry about a failure of one of my Thompson Center TCR-87 rifles as they were discontinued and the factory may not have the needed spare parts. A few years ago I was worried that in the future brass would not me available for my .22 Copper Centerfire Magnum so I bought about 500 to be sure I would never run out. That was a good idea because it was discontinued. Anyway, my opinion is that a potential cost of new products is that some good old products may be discontinued.

[jvs]

It never ceases to amaze me that folks grouse about new products or the excuses they have for their grousing.

I'ts really hard for me to believe how STUPID everybody else is compared to you.

Why if only everybody would have the complete understanding about the World, especially anything about guns, we'd all be in much better shape.

Now all we have to do is wait for you to Mature enough to realize that there are other opinions besides yours.

How's that for Grousing?

[IOWA DON]

Some new cartridges may not be so worthwhile and some worthwhile may not sell. And factories discontinuing good stuff because it was displaced by the latest not so good stuff annoys me. However, that is certainly not in the category of losing ones job or the death of a loved one or a whole bunch of other really bad things.

[Coyote Hunter]

It never ceases to amaze me that folks grouse about new products or the excuses they have for their grousing.

I'ts really hard for me to believe how STUPID everybody else is compared to you.

Why if only everybody would have the complete understanding about the World, especially anything about guns, we'd all be in much better shape.

Now all we have to do is wait for you to Mature enough to realize that there are other opinions besides yours.

How's that for Grousing?

Well, as Tom Hanks says in the movies “Stupid is as Stupid does.”

Not only were some of the excuses stupid, one in particular – the suggestion to use the .300 Savage instead of the .308 Marlin - was downright dangerous. 

While I don’t claim to have a “complete understanding of the world”, I do have many years of experience in engineering, manufacturing and product management and marketing.  When I said people “ignore manufacturing, business and/or market realities” I have a pretty good foundation for my claim.

Yes, that’s good grousing – off point, emotional rather than logical, made without an understanding of the underlying facts, and hence not persuasive.  It does, however, help prove my point that “well-reasoned and persuasive arguments as to why a product isn’t what it could be” are much harder to find.

[Hairtrigger]

You need to realize some of us must talk ourselves out of buying one of everything.
That is how I stay out of the poor house and in my wife's good graces.
Fact is the new cartridges do little more than create a stir and sure don't kill any deader

[Mikey]

Did you actually speak with 69 different people or did some rattle off a list of excuses.  That is a pretty daunting list you posted. 

Btw - what is the 6.5 Creedmoor?  I haven't heard of that one yet.  Is that a 260 Rem knock-off??  Mikey.

[skb2706]

In the not too distant future it won't matter much. If gun/ammo companies don't start promoting youth hunting and new hunter numbers there won't be anyone around to shoot the new stuff, the old stuff and anything else. If it were up to me I would focus on that long before I put a dime into cramming one more .30 cal onto the list.

[Coyote Hunter]

Did you actually speak with 69 different people or did some rattle off a list of excuses.  That is a pretty daunting list you posted. 

Btw - what is the 6.5 Creedmoor?  I haven't heard of that one yet.  Is that a 260 Rem knock-off??  Mikey.

Every one of those items listed is an actual excuse.  Many were used by multiple people.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is a cartridge developed by Hornady for long distance (up to 1000 yards) competitions. It is designed rather specifically to allow the bullet to extend further out of the case while not exceeding .308 COL limitations.  This makes it useful in AR-type rifles.  It is intended to be an “around the course” cartridge, meaning people don’t need more than one rifle and/or cartridge for the competitions.  Not being a competitor, I have no idea what the demand for such a cartridge is like.  I do know the 6.5s are use a lot for such competition.

[deltecs]

Recently the ammo companies have brought out cartridges that emulate existing rounds ballisticaly.  This is marketing and sales techniques.  Why do people buy them?  I, for one, do not see the need or advantage of any belted rim cartridge with the moniker of magnum.  Prior to the modern belted short mags, there were plenty of bottleneck rounds that existed having the same ballistics.  They were brought out to be used in a shorter standard action rather than the magnum length Brevex type.  Now the same thing is happening with a shorter action and with rounds using no belt and having similar ballistics more efficiently.  What's the problem?  Are the magnum owners now disappointed that they do not have the biggest, most powerful, fastest, and best killing round available?  Or is it that some of the new buyers do not and have not been overbore fans of maximum velocity.  The .338 Win Mag is a classic reputable round for NA big game.  Yet it only replaces another classic round that's been around since 1906.  The .333 Rimless Nitro.  Why use the belt then?  It has been a marketing technique for over 4 decades to entice the American shooter to buy the rounds and rifles.  Now the trend is swinging the other way.  Maybe correctly as there has been no reason for the belt.  The powder capacity is the same in an exact round without the belt so ballistics do not change, only magazine capacity.  I like the idea of the new .338 Ruger if the neck is of decent length for us hand loaders.

[jvs]

Yes, that’s good grousing – off point, emotional rather than logical, made without an understanding of the underlying facts, and hence not persuasive.  It does, however, help prove my point that “well-reasoned and persuasive arguments as to why a product isn’t what it could be” are much harder to find.

If there was anything off topic, it was not my reply.  It was your insistence of putting belly-aching in a Bolt Action forum.  It was YOU that, in my opinion, used a Bolt Action Forum to ridicule and critisize people for their taste in calibers, not me.  It was YOU that listed 69 repsonses from people that didn't suit you or meet your criteria as to what is important in your book.

If anyone doesn't understand the underlying facts, it is you. 

I thought I made myself quite clear when I brought up the fact that you disreguard 69 other peoples opinion, just so you can run off and sound in control.  My reply was persuasive enough that more people now know just how you think, and how you relate to others you may disagrree with.  Your point that "It does, however, help prove my point that “well-reasoned and persuasive arguments as to why a product isn’t what it could be” are much harder to find." is also skewed.  If anything you lost credibility with at least the 69 people you paraquoted, not to mention the many who read it.  You are neither reasoned or persuasive when you need to be critical to get your point across.   

Grow up.

I suppose that it is now time for the Hammer to fall.

[Coyote Hunter]

jvs –

I intentionally posted this on a forum I don’t moderate.  If the hammer falls it won’t be my doing.

A lot more than 69 people were probably offended as many of those excuses were used by multiple people.  Whether they are offended or not, I stand by what I wrote.  I posted the same message on three different web sites and positive responses outnumbered the negatives. 

By the way, I wasn’t ridiculing or criticizing people “for their taste in calibers “, I was pointing out the volume of poorly reasoned excuses for disliking new cartridges.  If you look at that list you’ll be hard pressed at best to find an argument that would have convinced Marlin and Hornady to do something different than the .308 Marlin and the Marlin XLR rifle.  (So hard pressed in fact, you’ll grow old looking for just one.)  As I said, the excuses ranged from “somewhat reasonable” to “downright stupid”.  I don’t know how many times I saw someone post that Marlin should have just chambered for the .300 Savage.  That suggestion was downright stupid and dangerous.

If people don’t like a new cartridge, that’s fine.  But every time I read that list I still laugh.  I’m not in control of anything here, but like everyone else I get to have my opinions.  If they offend you, so be it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Went back into the archives and found out why you might be PO’d.  You’re one of the folks that suggested making it something else – a “.308”.  You then implied, incorrectly, that the .308 Marlin was a proprietary cartridge.  (It is not, it’s a SAAMI standard cartridge.)

By “.308” one can only assume you mean “.308 Winchester” as the .308 Marlin already is a .308 caliber and not far behind the .308 Winchester in terms of velocity.  Of course factory .308 Win ammo in a Marlin’s tube magazine would be a dangerously stupid idea.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,102924.0.html
“If Marlin was going to make a .308, why couldn't they make a .308. “
“Certainly a .308 would have a bigger market than a proprietary cartridge. “

This goes for Excuse #70.   

[Questor]

We need a new rifle cartridge about as much as we need a new shotgun gauge. All the niches are filled and the industry knows it. Today they just keep pumping out new stuff to interest people who want to buy something new. It's really not for the sake of true improvement or innovation. All the real innovation happened about 100 years ago.

[Mattkc]

Why do we need smokeless powder when black powder works just fine.  If computers were around a hundred years ago people would be bitching about new fangled bolt action rifles, scopes and  indoor pluming.  Life would get pretty boring with nothing new to try or complain about.  What we really need is a good 308 vs 3006 thread.

[jvs]

The excuses ranged from incredibly uninformed, ignorant (as opposed to stupid), naive and even downright stupid to moderately so, to a very few that were somewhat reasonable.  Not one of the excuses on the list I compiled withstood close examination and most failed the laugh test.

You are so full of yourself.  If I buy you a new Mirror for Christmas, would you replace the one you wore out this year admiring yourself ?

You should take lessons from people who have people skills, because you certainly don't.  You claim to have all kinds of experience and education, but you appear to be in a position which you don't belong.  People don't come here for unsolicited Lectures or to be Insulted.  They come here to express opinions, ask questions and share ideas. 

And you still tend to criticize people who disagree with you for no other reason but because they disagree with you about what you think is best.  So I should like the .308 M/E just because you do?  That makes me stupid, incredibly uninformed, ignorant, naive or unreasonable?  You forget when you point a finger at somebody, three fingers are pointing back at you.

You should go back to staring in the mirror or start the crap somewhere else.  Your style creates dissention.  As a fellow Moderator here on GBO I think you should be put on the Carpet for your style... and warned, because your opinion is not the only opinion that counts around here, regardless of what you think your status is.

If that means I should be taken to task for bringing it up publically, so be it.  So long as everyone here understands that I would never think of calling anyone ' stupid, incredibly uninformed, ignorant, naive or unreasonable. ' 

Well...   those words do pertain to you CH, and will continue to do so until you GROW UP.

P.S.
( Hey Zach and Bill,   I'm done now.  This P*ssin contest has gone on long enough.  Thanks for letting me vent. )
 

[Cement Man]

I'm one who pretty much uses non-magnum, mostly "older" rifle cartridges.  I guess the .308 and .223 are my "new" ones.  I really like the .30/.30, '06, .45-70, and the 6.5 Swede.  They all fill my "niche" - requirements predicated on performance, personal interests, and the firearms that shoot them.  I can't even bring myself to read an article about a WSM, Rem UM, and the like.  BUT I really do celebrate that we have so many choices and I personally like to see the introduction of new cartridges.  As far as I am concerned it's good for the shooting sports, good for the economy, and in the mix of "newbies", I'm sure that there is some good and not so good stuff, some better stuff, and some fun stuff.  I forgot to mention - the .17HMR, that is a new one and I now have two rifles so chambered and I enjoy shooting them immensely. Arguably to some, a somewhat useless, unnecessary cartridge, but I sure found it to be fun. 
I have to admit, I also wonder why new cartridges bring out these subjective market analyses, economic theories, conspiracy exposures, and negativism.  I also have to admit that I can't read Coyote Hunter's list without a good chuckle here and there.  I actually think the list is kind of a "mirror" for skeptics and cynics.  JMO
 

[Coyote Hunter]

jvs –

There is a BIG difference between calling an idea stupid and calling the author of the idea stupid.  Even very bright people come up with some really dumb ideas and no one I know is exempt – including myself.  Ignorant does not mean ‘stupid’ it means lacking education or specific knowledge, unaware, uninformed.  There is no shame in being ignorant per se as we are all ignorant in many areas.  Naïve means lacking in experience and uninformed means lacking information - and again there is no shame attached per se in either situation. 

When I said “The excuses ranged from incredibly uninformed, ignorant (as opposed to stupid), naive and even downright stupid to moderately so, to a very few that were somewhat reasonable” I was not calling anyone – including yourself – ‘stupid’ (although let’s face it – not everyone is on the same intellectual plane) but rather pointing out the inescapable facts of the matter.    What I was referring to were the excuses.  As I said, even very bright people come up with some really dumb ideas.

You, on the other hand, have made direct personal attacks.  There is a very big difference.

As to being a Moderator here on GBO, I posted this on a forum I don’t moderate – and did so intentionally.  As Moderator of the “Medium Bore rifles” forum I serve at the pleasure of the powers that be.  They can revoke my privileges any time they wish.  That said, as Moderator I would allow generalized comments such as I have made and forbid the kind of personalized attacks you have made.

[Zachary]

Okay guys, let's not let this get out of hand.  Let's try and be more respectful.

Zachary

[DalesCarpentry]

Okay guys, let's not let this get out of hand.  Let's try and be more respectful.

Zachary

  +1 Dale

[moxgrove]

You guys are all a bunch of whippersnappers. Everyone knows there hasn't been a worthwhile improvement in long arms since the Brown Bess!

[skb2706]

Can we get back to the "grousing".............I like grousing.

Yep the smartest thing our US gun manufacturers could do is focus on developing and creating a new .30 cal gun/ammo. They don't already have big enough issues ?

[Hairtrigger]

My last rifle calibers are 225 Win, 250-3000 and 6mmPPC.
I am slow to accept new things

and yes... you have my permission to ad that to your worthless list!

[billy_56081]

I haven't seen anything new in cartridges since H&K's caseless ammunition. Remington's etronix ammo was kinda new, at least the primer was. Otherwise they have just reshaped  an old product.

[Coyote Hunter]

I’ll do some grousing of my own.

A  beltless .338 magnum has been on my wish list for quite a while.   A RUM is a bit more than I need but has never been out of the question.  It was my hope that Ruger would neck down the .375 Ruger case but they necked it down and shortened it instead.

Grumble…

OK, what about the .308 Marlin?  Truth be told, I wish it had been a 52,000 CUP .307 Winchester.

Grumble…

I will probably get  a .308 Marlin in the stainless XLR.  As to a .338, I may just get the .375 Ruger instead.

[Cheesehead]

I think there is still room for more cartridges. Wildcats based on the WSSM and the WSM line which I think a innovative and can be expanded upon.

Cheese