Author Topic: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?  (Read 3031 times)

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Offline rickt300

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20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« on: January 04, 2007, 02:58:23 PM »
I am thinking about building a 35 Whelen on a Mauser action and to keep overall length down I want to use a shorter than average barrel. With the cartridges good expansion ratio I don't think it would lose much velocity. Opinions?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2007, 03:02:49 PM »
Mattparliament gets 2815fps with the 225gr TSX and RL15 in his 22" Handi, if that helps any.

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Offline rickt300

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2007, 10:11:03 AM »
Rifle is finished now except for the barrel shortening. It shoots better than I expected with it's 24 inch barrel but I am still thinking about shortening it. I need that bit of extra handiness inside of blinds and for faster getting in and out of trucks. Think I'll go 21 inches first.
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Offline Zachary

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2007, 10:24:27 AM »
I wouldn't.  You can always cut barrel length, but you can't add to it.  Do 22" and then see how she does.

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Offline jcn59

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2007, 10:36:11 AM »
I think my 9.3 X 62 CZ has a 20.5" barrel.  My .35  Whelen  has a 22" barrel.  Similar cartridges; I suppose both work fine.  When the Whelen barrel seems too long for the task at hand, I just step back an inch and a half or so to make room for the extra length.
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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2007, 10:52:15 AM »
When you lop off that 3" to take it to 21" it will surprise me if you lose more than 50 fps. The expansion ration of the round is such that you're just not adding may fps per inch from it. And in the REAL WORLD even 200 fps is on no significant consequence. Go ahead and chop er off.


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Offline 35Rem

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2007, 11:03:34 AM »
I would think (that's dangerous) that the shorter barrel will be considerably Louder than the 24" in that caliber.  It's almost a magnum, that's designed to use that much barrel to burn the powder. Less powder burned in the barrel = more muzzle flash, bigger boom, right? ???
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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2007, 11:52:46 AM »
It probably will NOT be louder but will seem so since the noise will be 3" closer to the ears. ALL the powder will be burned in the first 10" to 12" of barrel. No unburned powder is escaping due to barrel length. Still the longer (within reason) the pressure has to act on the bullet the more velocity results. A point will be reached when more is not better. If you had a barrel measured in feet not inches the bullet might not even get out the barrel depending of course on just how many feet.


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Offline BigLost

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2007, 07:35:17 AM »
except for the sound,you'll never notice a diff. in the field :D
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Offline rickt300

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2007, 09:14:45 AM »
I have an almost identical rifle in 7x57, it also started with a 24 inch barrel and was also excessivly muzzle heavy. Trying to get the rifle from the back of the front seat, around the seats and get out of the truck was a lot of very careful maneuvering. The difference when I cut the barrel to 19 inches was amazing. A side effect of shortening the 7x57 barrel was that just about any load now shoots very close to the same POI where before any different load needed to be taken to the range and the rifle resighted for it.  The Whelen however shoots bullets from 200 to 250 grains very close to the same POI right now. My 358 BLR puts 250 grain Speer bullets eleven inches lower on target than the 200 grainers. My Whelen will be generally an under 250 yard rifle and will most likely replace the 358 and 444 as my night hog stalking gun.
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Offline Boxhead

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2007, 03:04:25 PM »
I would just caution you to carefully consider rifle balance when chopping. I own a few Whelen's and 9.3x62's  in barrels from 22" - 26 " and they all balance fine, carry fine and deliver what is needed for the intended purpose BUT they are all stocked quite differently too. The few rifles I have played with the were less than 22" I did not like. Of course velocity was not a consideration as it's splitting hairs in the filed. Assuming a typical wood stocked rifle weighing 7 1/2# or so without scope I'd go with 22' minimum.

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2007, 06:11:49 PM »
Quote
I'd go with 22' minimum.

I'm not sure the Whelan burns enough powder to get the bullet to the far end of that 22 FOOT long barrel.  :o ;D :-\


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Offline saltydog

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2007, 05:21:32 AM »
You will lose about 45 fps per inch with the Whelan - 130 fps will increase your trajectory which is already not the best. IMO the 24" is giving you about the best combination of length vs gas expansion for this cartridge. In addition if it is shooting well 1 MOA or better I wouldn't cut it down as you are shooting a heavy bullet and your barrel harmonics will be changed if you cut it down. If you can live with increased trajectory and a potential increase in MOA go ahead and cut it to 18" or 20" to maximize usefullness in close quarters.

Offline rickt300

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2007, 08:55:26 AM »
Increased trajectory? It will surely be fine when sighted in 3 inches high at 100 yards and considering I won't use the rifle past 300 yards anyway. Too many people think a bullets should fly so flat they don't want to have to think about it. Kind of funny I think. You end up getting poor bullet performance at close range due to high velocity and have a rifle only well suited for ranges beyond normal shot ranges. I am seeing a return of interest in rifles that perform well at normal ranges such as the Whelen and the 358.
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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2007, 10:17:36 AM »
Rick please shoot that gun with 24" barrel and two or three loads and then repeat those same loads when it's been cut and give us a report on the velocity loss. I think folks are making way too big an issue of the loss and also grossly over stating what it will be. You now have an excellent chance to give us some hard numbers as to what it really does in one specific barrel.


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Offline dw06

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2007, 11:21:00 AM »
Rick please shoot that gun with 24" barrel and two or three loads and then repeat those same loads when it's been cut and give us a report on the velocity loss.

Thats a great idea!Since I use a 20" barreled 06 which is the same case I'd be interested in the outcome.I know it wouldn't be exactly the same do to different expansion ratio do to bore size,but would be close.

I think folks are making way too big an issue of the loss and also grossly over stating what it will be. You now have an excellent chance to give us some hard numbers as to what it really does in one specific barrel.

I agree,I've had some tell me I was losing over 200fps from a 22" to a 20",not so as I own both,and be darned if I can tell any difference shooting them side by side out to 300' at the range.Only difference I've noted while hunting was all in favor of the shorter tube being handier where I hunt.NOT knocking longer barrels as they have there place,but I prefer a short one for hunting.So Rick,do what you want,and be happy after all thats all that matters since you are the end user. ;)
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Offline rickt300

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2007, 04:36:58 PM »
I am going to work up some full power loads using the Speer and Hornady 250 grain bullets powered by Reloder 15 just to see what I can get on the heavy end. I will probably load some 225 grain Sierra bullets on top of the same powder. There is no real hurry to chop the barrel so I can wait till I get the velocities of top loads using RL15 out of my 24 inch tube. After all I have a 358 BLR which is a handy rifle as is.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2007, 07:09:26 PM »
'06 case with a 35 cal bore, I don't think the diff. will be that great in the 35 Whelen. I see you aren't shooting it beyond 300 yards, no biggie with the shorter tube. Alot of you know I like a long barrel with some rounds, but not this one.
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Offline Mckie Hollow

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2007, 03:34:47 AM »
You do a lot more carrying, Than Shooting. Lop the Barrel off and go Hunting. A Deer won't care if it is hit @ 2700fps or 2600fps. 20" would be nice for a Whelen. My Brother's is 18", The Deer don't Care!!!

Offline saltydog

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2007, 04:29:06 AM »
Increased trajectory? It will surely be fine when sighted in 3 inches high at 100 yards and considering I won't use the rifle past 300 yards anyway. Too many people think a bullets should fly so flat they don't want to have to think about it. Kind of funny I think. You end up getting poor bullet performance at close range due to high velocity and have a rifle only well suited for ranges beyond normal shot ranges. I am seeing a return of interest in rifles that perform well at normal ranges such as the Whelen and the 358.

Yes the trajectory is a significent factor in the Whelen cartridge. Check the potential fps, bullet bc's for 35 cal with your ballistics calculator. BC's for typical 35 cal hunting bullets are not great being in the low to mid .3's and velocity with a 250 gr. in a 24" barrel is only 2400 fps. It takes 4 inches elevation at 100 yards to put you on at 200 yards and then you will be over 16 inches low at 300 yards. Drop velocity to 2250 fps with your 21' barrel and you have a considerable increase in elevation at 150 yards required.

Rick please shoot that gun with 24" barrel and two or three loads and then repeat those same loads when it's been cut and give us a report on the velocity loss. I think folks are making way too big an issue of the loss and also grossly over stating what it will be. You now have an excellent chance to give us some hard numbers as to what it really does in one specific barrel.
To me a 150 fps velocity loss is significent when dealing with a cartridge only getting 2400 fps to start with. You have an '06 capacity cartridge case using over 55 grains of midburning rate powder. Data I have reviewed on 308 WIN cartridges indicates that with 45 grains of similar burning rate powder there is still velocity gain in barrels over 24 inches and on average a loss of 35-45 fps for every inch you decrease the barrel length under 24". If you slow the bullet it down too much you might as well be using a 45-70 or .444 and have the advantage of a heavier bullet.

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2007, 05:13:55 AM »
Increased trajectory? It will surely be fine when sighted in 3 inches high at 100 yards and considering I won't use the rifle past 300 yards anyway. Too many people think a bullets should fly so flat they don't want to have to think about it. Kind of funny I think. You end up getting poor bullet performance at close range due to high velocity and have a rifle only well suited for ranges beyond normal shot ranges. I am seeing a return of interest in rifles that perform well at normal ranges such as the Whelen and the 358.

Yes the trajectory is a significent factor in the Whelen cartridge. Check the potential fps, bullet bc's for 35 cal with your ballistics calculator. BC's for typical 35 cal hunting bullets are not great being in the low to mid .3's and velocity with a 250 gr. in a 24" barrel is only 2400 fps. It takes 4 inches elevation at 100 yards to put you on at 200 yards and then you will be over 16 inches low at 300 yards. Drop velocity to 2250 fps with your 21' barrel and you have a considerable increase in elevation at 150 yards required.

Rick please shoot that gun with 24" barrel and two or three loads and then repeat those same loads when it's been cut and give us a report on the velocity loss. I think folks are making way too big an issue of the loss and also grossly over stating what it will be. You now have an excellent chance to give us some hard numbers as to what it really does in one specific barrel.
To me a 150 fps velocity loss is significent when dealing with a cartridge only getting 2400 fps to start with. You have an '06 capacity cartridge case using over 55 grains of midburning rate powder. Data I have reviewed on 308 WIN cartridges indicates that with 45 grains of similar burning rate powder there is still velocity gain in barrels over 24 inches and on average a loss of 35-45 fps for every inch you decrease the barrel length under 24". If you slow the bullet it down too much you might as well be using a 45-70 or .444 and have the advantage of a heavier bullet.


That's some bad info you're putting out. Looking in the Hornady manual for the .358" 250 grain spire point interloct bullet I find the following.

If you move it out at 2400 fps for a 200 yard zero you will be only 2.9" high at 100 yards and the drop at 300 yards would be 11.9". Move it out at only 2300 fps and the numbers change to 3.3" high at 100 yards for the 200 yard zero and at 300 yard it's 13.1" low. Drop it all the way down to 2200 fps and the numbers become 3.7" at 100 and 14.5" at 300 yards still flatter than your numbers indicate. You have to drop the starting velocity all the way to 2000 fps to get your numbers.

Inside 200 yards as is the stated use it really makes little to now difference.

Start it at 2500 fps which in a Whelan is really moving out and you'll only change the numbers to 2.6" and 10.8" at 300 yards.

So from 2500 fps which is about max any Whelan is likely to push a 250 even from a long barrel down to a mere 2000 fps which is way less than the 21" barrel is going to deliver you'll be 2" higher at 100 yards and 7.1" lower at 300 yards for a 200 yard zero. To most of us who have real world experience hunting rather than internet experience only that's really not that big a deal. And when the stated purpose is inside 200 yards the difference those 3" he's gonna chop it are of no concern at all and the handiness it adds way more than makes up for it.


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Offline jvs

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2007, 09:17:14 PM »
I think I'd like a Whelen in a 18½" barrel.  I can't even see 300 yds in most cases when in the woods. 

If I was going to a place with a possible 300 yd long shot, I'd be taking the 6.5 rem mag or the .30-06, maybe the .308.

I like the idea of a Whelen Carbine.  It got me thinking....
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Offline saltydog

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2007, 02:58:12 AM »
Increased trajectory? It will surely be fine when sighted in 3 inches high at 100 yards and considering I won't use the rifle past 300 yards anyway. Too many people think a bullets should fly so flat they don't want to have to think about it. Kind of funny I think. You end up getting poor bullet performance at close range due to high velocity and have a rifle only well suited for ranges beyond normal shot ranges. I am seeing a return of interest in rifles that perform well at normal ranges such as the Whelen and the 358.

Yes the trajectory is a significent factor in the Whelen cartridge. Check the potential fps, bullet bc's for 35 cal with your ballistics calculator. BC's for typical 35 cal hunting bullets are not great being in the low to mid .3's and velocity with a 250 gr. in a 24" barrel is only 2400 fps. It takes 4 inches elevation at 100 yards to put you on at 200 yards and then you will be over 16 inches low at 300 yards. Drop velocity to 2250 fps with your 21' barrel and you have a considerable increase in elevation at 150 yards required.

Rick please shoot that gun with 24" barrel and two or three loads and then repeat those same loads when it's been cut and give us a report on the velocity loss. I think folks are making way too big an issue of the loss and also grossly over stating what it will be. You now have an excellent chance to give us some hard numbers as to what it really does in one specific barrel.
To me a 150 fps velocity loss is significent when dealing with a cartridge only getting 2400 fps to start with. You have an '06 capacity cartridge case using over 55 grains of midburning rate powder. Data I have reviewed on 308 WIN cartridges indicates that with 45 grains of similar burning rate powder there is still velocity gain in barrels over 24 inches and on average a loss of 35-45 fps for every inch you decrease the barrel length under 24". If you slow the bullet it down too much you might as well be using a 45-70 or .444 and have the advantage of a heavier bullet.


That's some bad info you're putting out. Looking in the Hornady manual for the .358" 250 grain spire point interloct bullet I find the following.

If you move it out at 2400 fps for a 200 yard zero you will be only 2.9" high at 100 yards and the drop at 300 yards would be 11.9". Move it out at only 2300 fps and the numbers change to 3.3" high at 100 yards for the 200 yard zero and at 300 yard it's 13.1" low. Drop it all the way down to 2200 fps and the numbers become 3.7" at 100 and 14.5" at 300 yards still flatter than your numbers indicate. You have to drop the starting velocity all the way to 2000 fps to get your numbers.

Inside 200 yards as is the stated use it really makes little to now difference.

Start it at 2500 fps which in a Whelan is really moving out and you'll only change the numbers to 2.6" and 10.8" at 300 yards.

So from 2500 fps which is about max any Whelan is likely to push a 250 even from a long barrel down to a mere 2000 fps which is way less than the 21" barrel is going to deliver you'll be 2" higher at 100 yards and 7.1" lower at 300 yards for a 200 yard zero. To most of us who have real world experience hunting rather than internet experience only that's really not that big a deal. And when the stated purpose is inside 200 yards the difference those 3" he's gonna chop it are of no concern at all and the handiness it adds way more than makes up for it.


Talk about bad information - the spelling of WHELEN is with an "E" not an "A" unless we are discussing a different cartridge. Col. Whelen, of 35 Whelen fame, is a somewhat well known historical figure -
 http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/hunting/biggame/article/0,13199,197344,00.html. The ballistics experienced reader would understand that the bullet drop number will be associated with the bullet and velocity and vary accordingly as I mentioned. The Spire Point Hornady Interlock has one of the highest bc values one could choose - us the RN Interlock and the results vary considerably. For a counterpoint you only have to review the Remington tables - http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R35WH1*R35WH3 and you will find different bullet drop values. The 35 Whelen is best served when using a longer barrel.


Offline rickt300

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Re: 20-21 inch barrel on 35 Whelen?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2007, 04:51:23 PM »
I recently shot a coyote at 300 yards with my Whelen and I held what I thought was 10 inches over him. My present play load uses WC852 which is kind of slow for the cartridge but I have a lot of it. I'd be real surprised if I am getting 2400 fps out of the 24 inch barrel pushing the Speer 250 grain spitzer. I could have shot this coyote with my 270 and would have had to hold a few inches over him with it too. Drop is only significant if you don't know what it is or how to deal with it. If I were to purposely use this rifle for longer shots I would load RL15 to max using one of the pointed 225 grain bullets. But my real intended use is to take the resident Hogzilla and I hunt him at night. I also feel that even with a 20 inch barrel I should be able to get 2500 fps using RL 15 and the 250 grain Speer spitzer or Hornady's round nose version but if not 2400fps will be just fine.
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