Synthetic fore end accuracy?

[Fazak]

Still playing with my .223 Synthetic Handi and it still demonstrates a propensity to throw fliers.

If it was consistently inaccurate I'd just accept it and move on. But this little rifle is peculiar. It'll sometimes group 3 or 4 shots in a very tidy cloverleaf then pitch the next one 3" up and right.

I much prefer the look of the synthetic stock set up on a Handi and am reluctant to change it out, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had problems with fliers which was solved by the addition of a laminated or wood fore end.

Also,.. does anyone have any tips specific to bedding the synthetic fore ends?

I really want to like this slick little bargain basement, matte black single shot carbine and within reason, I'm willing to do what it takes to get it right even if it means a new barrel in a different caliber. (30-30 would be my next choice, maybe .243 after that)

From reading threads on this forum, I've noticed that quite a few people have had trouble getting good accuracy from their .223 Handi's while others get a tack driver straight out of the box. I'm wondering if the difficulty level involved in boring and rifling a .224 barrel contributes to their "hit or miss" status and if I should try a larger diameter caliber,... or if I can make a .223 work.

The rifle is fitted with a 6-18X40 Nikon Buckmaster scope and I spend enough time at the bench to know when a shot has been pulled. I've experimented with quite a variety of loads and while some seem better than others, none have eliminted the flier situation.

I suppose that my main quandry is, "Is there any modifications which are going to make this particular barrel shoot,... or should I invest in another?"

Difficult question to answer, I realize.

[J. Plate]

Well, I'll try. 

I just replaced the synthetic stock set on my Sportster.  I wanted to float the .17HMR barrel, but didn't want to remove the required amount of material to do it, or use an extensive bedding process, and the o-ring didn't quite do it. The synthetic stock made quite a bit of contact with the barrel the entire length of it.  I decided on swapping the stock set out for a laminated set, and couldn't be happier.  Now, the barrel is floated and a touch tighter. 

All in all, the .17HMR was grouping under an inch at 100 consistently.....but, yesterday I was putting all 5 shots into one ragged hole more consistently than ever.  FWIW, I think it worked.

[Survivor]

J.  What do you mean by removing material from your synthetic forend?  I'm working with one as well but it's essentially hollow like a canoe.  There are two structural ribs that devide the stock in 3rds. but they're shallow enough not to touch the barrel however there is a touching surface at the reciever end and the tip end( approx 1" ea.) + a lame raised area to interface the forend screw.  I was considering making dams on either side of that raised screw area and filling in around it with bedding compound in order to make a better surface to barrel match(approx 1" to the front and back of the screw).  Tighten down your stock and let it set up with a shy 1/8" shim in the tip and the front length of your barrel should float completely.  Before all of that I'm trying an o ring today.  I've got some ideas up my sleeve with some 1/16" dense rubber that I found at the Depot by the sheet(12"x12"+ scissors= ).  Might make a sort of no adhesive bed with just the right rubber template cut out.  We'll see.  As it is not much of the barrrel is touching the stock.  This rifle is a 30-06.  It should shoot better than it does.  I feel your pain. 

[dw06]

I think J means it contacted the entire length on the sides.Thats what mine does,pretty tight too.When I changed from the wood forend to the synthetic I went ahead and put the oring in as I had it in for the wood.Mine shoots great,always right at half inch 3 shot groups so I'm not messing with it.I just snug it down to where the screw stops and just move it a hair more.

[quickdtoo]

Fazak, make sure there's no oil on the latch and latch shelf, most folks store their rifles muzzle up, if the rifle was cleaned and oiled after last shooting it, the oil will run down the bore and barrel and end up on the latch which doesn't help accuracy in most cases. I started storing mine muzzle down just like my muzzleloaders so that won't happen.

Also, most Handis, like a lot of firearms,  shoot best fouled, sometimes requiring several shots to get back to good accuracy after a good cleaning.

Tim

[Fazak]

I dunno, Tim.

Last time out I had just given the rifle a thorough decopperizing and cleaning.

The first 4 shots went into less than an inch at 100 yards. The fifth shot was about 3.5 inches out of the cluster formed by the first 4.

I finished firing the 50 rounds that I hdd loaded and the rifle continued to demonstrate about 3.5, maybe 4 MOA with 5 shot groups, but often three of those 5 shots would be in less than an inch.

That's what I meant when I said that this rifle is "peculiar". I just can't discover what's causing it to group roughly half of it's shots and pitch the rest to hell and gone,... lol. One wouldn't think that there would be so many variables on a rifle as simple as a Handi,... but apparently there's quite a bit to ponder when looking for a cause for this behavior.

The forearm?

The crown?

The barrel itself?

Clean barrel or fouled barrel?

As for the oil situation, I've been adamant about keeping it free of oil.

[quickdtoo]

How's barrel temp tween shots and groups, are the subsequent large groups with a warm barrel, or are the groups tween cool down sessions?

Tim

[cheatermk3]

Sounds like your rifle shoots best with a cold, clean barrel. 

Have you lapped/polished the bore?  I have a 25-06 that settled down a bunch after having had the bore polished.

How much time are you letting the bore cool between shots?

[burntmuch]

Are you resting forend on the bag the same every time. I had an Issue like that with my 308

[Fazak]

I'll admit, I don't take a lot of time between shots.

I'm going to put together a hundred of the load that's shown the most promise and take some time with it when the weather breaks.

Like I said, I want this rifle to work,... and I'd like it to work in .223.

A synthetic stocked .223 Handi just seems like a very "proper" firearm to me.

On the other hand, I can see the versatility of a Handi in 30-30 also,... and a friend of mine has one that'll shoot 2 MOA all day long with a myriad of loads.

I'm curious about getting this frame fitted with a 30-30 barrel,.. using the same stock set and seeing what it will do. I'm sure that I will soon.

[quickdtoo]

It's not a superlight, is it? 20" or 22" barrel?

Tim

[wilderness]

Are you resting forend on the bag the same every time. I had an Issue like that with my 308

I agree, it's real easy to get your scope off level with a bag. A bipod or lead sled is what I prefer. Are you using hand loads? Even the best match ammo is far from perfect.

Also try one of those limbsaver barrel dampeners, they seem to cut down on vibration.

Another thing to try is shoot your last shot at a different point of aim, it tends to cut down the anticipation factor.

[bigjeepman]

Fazak ...

I am not the expert that you need right now. These other guys are much, much better than I helping people with the fine tuning process of the Handi's. What I might suggest is that you hold off of " I'm going to put together a hundred of the load that's shown the most promise and take some time with it when the weather breaks." We all know what kind of work goes into reloading 100 rounds of ammo. It just doesn't sound like you have a load showing the kind of promise to do one hundred of at this point in time. I broke in my Handi's with WWB 45gr factory ammo and until I ran about 50 to 60 rounds through it, I didn't even think of a reload. I am not saying my way is the best way but I knew from quick telling me a long time ago, it takes some rounds down the barrel before it will start settling down. Besides, I use Winchester brass to reload with.

If this is your first Handi, it takes some time to get the barrel settled down and it took me some time to get used to shooting a Handi rifle. I had all bolt guns and lever actions before I got my first Handi. Some people can just flat out shoot good ... I am not one of those people. I have to get "familiar" with a firearm first. Maybe this doesn't help you but I just wanted to give a view of someone on the outside looking in.

good luck and good shooting.....

[Fazak]

It's not a superlight, is it? 20" or 22" barrel?

Tim

No,... just the standard type barrel.

[quickdtoo]

That's good, the superlights are pretty finicky, just wanted to rule that out. Jeepman makes a good point about break in. Another issue, just to get back to basics, is the trigger pull, are you making a conscious effort to make sure the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear each time? That combined with barrel heat and/or not placing the rifle in the same position each time on the front bag, just under the hinge, could be a the problem, maybe a little of each...maybe??

Tim

[Fazak]

Well,... I've been reading along here for a bit and have tried to follow the conventional wisdom on how to shoot these rifles,... and I've lived with it for about 700 rounds so far.

I know that true consistent MOA is elusive from most rifles and I don't expect it to just happen. I do however, think that a Handi in .223 should be able to consistently produce nice, round 2.5 MOA on demand with various loads. That's the standard that I set for any rifle that I own and I see no reason to believe that it's not possible with a Handi. I'm just not sure that it's possible from *this* Handi.

I'd be interested in knowing how many people are getting good "out of the box" accuracy from their .223's.

I recall a thread where Fred mentioned that he had tried 2 of them in .223 and wasn't real encouraged with the results.

For that matter, I'd be very interested in knowing which centerfire caliber produces the best overall accuracy from a Handi rifle,... if it was possible to get reliable information on the subject.

Tell me Tim,.....you seem to have had about as much experience as anyone with these rifles. If you were going to buy a Handi based solely on it's "out of the box" accuracy,.... which caliber and configuration would you choose?

I'd really like to know.

[quickdtoo]

I have to say the .45-70 is the number one, always shoots well out of the box caliber in a Handi, but the .25-06, .270, .280, .30-30, .357 and .30-06 are all good choices too.  The .243 and .308 seems to be a bit more troublesome, but even they are good shooters usually unless of course the superlight .243 is chosen. Usually the .223 standard and bull barrel are good too once the right ammo is found, but there's always one in the bunch that can give you fits, and apparently you're got one like that, there have been a few in just about every caliber, unfortunately, it's one of the most popular calibers in a Handi/Ultra.

If yours is a problem when shot warm, and that does sound like the problem from what you've said before, I'd do some work on the forend, or change to a wood stock, the syn stock for me hasn't been the most user friendly, it's harder to tune, even tho I like the weight, I have few syn stocked H&Rs, 3 centerfires and 2 rimfires to be exact, I like lams best, then wood, syn last.

Tim

[Fazak]

Thanks,... I appreciate the input.

[bigjeepman]

Here are some groups I shot almost two years ago with my .223 Handi ... they are 3 different bullet/powder loads ...  I guess I got lucky because I have only used the O ring and gave it a good cleaning ...

3 shot group - Nosler 50gr BT - 26.0gr Varget   (.248")


3 shot group - Nosler 50gr BT - 21.0gr IMR4198   (.453")


4 shot group - Hornady 55gr Vmax - 21.6gr IMR 4198   (.510")

[burntmuch]

I had a 308 surviver that would do 1.5 in groups all day. switched over to synthetic monticarlo stock & foreend. Groups opened up to 4 inches. WHY?? who knows. I would suggest borrowing another forend & give it a shot?

[J. Plate]

I think J means it contacted the entire length on the sides.

That's exactly what I was talking about.  My synthetic forend made contact with the barrel on the sides the entire length of the forend.  I put the o-ring in, to no avail.  I even put two in, and when I cranked it down there was still contact.  I couldn't pass the 'dollar bill' test.  It never even made it past the front of the forend.   Instead of putting a lot of time into modifying the forend, I read on here how the utlra forend and the ultra varmint forend channels were a little wider than the synthetics.....

The forend that I have on my .17HMR is now an ultra laminated and it's floated the entire length.  The only contact that it makes with the barrel is at the stud.

[myarmor]

Still playing with my .223 Synthetic Handi and it still demonstrates a propensity to throw fliers.

If it was consistently inaccurate I'd just accept it and move on. But this little rifle is peculiar. It'll sometimes group 3 or 4 shots in a very tidy cloverleaf then pitch the next one 3" up and right.

As mentioned it sounds to me that you are shooting too fast and the barrel is heating up. On top of that the synthetic forearm, and depending on how tight you tightened down the forearm screw will give you a lot of pressure on the barrel. Adding an O-Ring to the synthetic forearm kinda defeats the purpose of a free float, because when you go to tighten the screw, the synthetic forearm will flex and still touch the barrel. Thus creating more pressure on the barrel in a slightly different area.
My 223 Standard contour barrel will shoot decent with a synthetic forearm, but only when supported  under the hinge pin. If I put it on Bi-Pods it's everywhere.

I much prefer the look of the synthetic stock set up on a Handi and am reluctant to change it out, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had problems with fliers which was solved by the addition of a laminated or wood fore end.

In a word, yes. The wooden forearm will in most cases tighten up the whole fit. My same 223 will shoot more consistant and a whole lot better groups with my laminates than any of my synthetics.
 I too like the synthetic forearms look and feel. And I am in the process of trying ways to strengthen a synthetic forearm to get more consistant groups, with different materials.
One route you might want to consider, is to pick up a used wooden forearm and use the Truck bed liner spray on it. I used it and then sprayed a coat of flat black Krylon over it, and it matches excellent. You wouldn't know the difference if you hadn't done the job yourself. Plus this way you can shim the forearm spacer to make for a very tight fit, and an overall stronger forearm. And if you don't like the look or shape of the wooden forearm, then shape it to how ever you like with a little sandpaper.

You have put 700 round through it so far right? Then your barrel sounds well broke in.
I suggest you pick up a wood forearm as mentioned, either Sand out the barrel channel and O-Ring it or bed it as per the FAQs, then clean the devil out of it as in the FAQs, and grab some of the best loads you have had sucess with -or some WWB 40gr JHP's- support the rifle with your bags under the  receiver, and follow through with every shot pulling through the same each time. And let that barrel cool.

Sounds to me that there is no real reason you cannot get this 223 to shoot well. It just may take a little tweeking to get there. No big deal.




-Aaron