Author Topic: Actual cylinder capacity?  (Read 1300 times)

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Offline Naphtali

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Actual cylinder capacity?
« on: December 31, 2006, 09:02:42 AM »
I have never seen nor handled a Freedom Arms 5-shot revolver, model 83, .454 Magnum. I understand these have no automatically engaging safety mechanisms.

Is there any safe way to carry the 5-shot revolvers with all chambers loaded? For example, are there [safety] notches between chambers as occurs with Remington percussion cap lock revolver designs?
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Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2006, 10:00:46 AM »
I don't know how the safety is on the model 83, but on the 97 model there is a transfer bar safety. I carry mine with only 4, but I do actually believe it would be safe to carry with 5...and have no concern if I choose to carry it that way. However, being I don't see much need for more than 1 shot, I am happy with 4.
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Offline Reloder28

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2007, 07:24:38 AM »
The 83's must be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber. I , personally don't like that. If, for strength, you give up the 6th cahamber thereby rendering it a five shot, then I expect to be able to use all five. I was about to purchase an FA revolver until I learned of this.

Linebaugh offers a great product built on your Ruger Blackhawk/Vaquero frame. This allows you to have your transfer bar safety & maintain your cylinder length. IF you go with the FA 97, you will give up cylinder length. I believe FA does this to keep users from loading 454's in the 45 Colt cylinder.

Everything in life is a concession: If you want this feature, you gotta' give up that feature. Why FA does not use the transfer bar safety in the 83 is beyond me. Why Ruger doesn't go full into tilt production with the Hunter revolvers and offer them widely chambered in 45 LC is beyond me. If you want a Hunter in 45 LC you gotta buy one in 44 Mag and send it to Linebaugh to have it drilled out and redone. Not everybody is enamored with the 44 Mag's as the mfr's might think. I wouldn't have one. I hate 'em. I already own a Ruger Hunter in 45 LC and it took me three years to find it. If I have to buy a Hunter in 44 Mag just to have another 45 LC built I will conceal my face during the purchase. That is how much I despise the 44 Mag's.

 
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Offline MS Hitman

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2007, 10:47:08 AM »
NO, it is strongly recommended the revolvers be carried on an empty chamber.   I have carried my FAs for years with five in the cylinder and not had a problem.  I won't tell anyone else how to carry their revolver, but that's how I do it.

The surest safety on any firearm should be the grey matter between one's ears.  This doesn't always work or we wouldn't have so many entries in the Darwin Awards.  I use the first notch to hold the hammer off the firing pin and some common sense with regards to handling the revolver.

Offline Rod in Pa

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2007, 12:06:27 PM »
I always carry my model 83 44 mag on a cylinder that has a snap cap. If you can't hit the target with four shots, you better call it a day. Rod in Pa

Online Graybeard

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2007, 12:14:00 PM »
Like MS Hitman I've always carried them with a full five rounds in the cylinder. So as you wish but that's the way I personally do it.


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Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2007, 04:51:41 PM »
Naphtali,
Model 97's, whether 5 or 6 shot, have a transfer bar safety. Mdl. 83's do not. However, they have a "safety notch", reached by pulling the hammer back about 1/16 to 1/8". The cylinder is then rotated counter-clockwise a bit, where it locks in place until the hammer is again cocked. Like Rob and Graybeard, I loaded my Mdl. 83's this way and carried 5 rounds for about 10 years. Finally, I decided that it was more aggravation to carry 5 this way, and less safe to lower the hammer on a chambered round, before pulling it back to the safety notch. As a result, I reverted to the old, safe, tried and true single action drill of "load one , skip one, load 3, pull the hammer back and lower it on an empty chamber" drill, and carry only 4 rounds. When hunting and after the first shot, if another shot is not immediately needed, I leave the hammer down on the fired case and flip the loading gate open, dropping another round in the empty chamber that had been under the hammer, giving 4 more,"ready to go". I've never felt that I needed more.

Offline Ak Guy

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2007, 08:50:39 PM »
You bet I go w/ the full 5 !!  I carry it for griz protection, and I really feel a little "cheated" to go from 6 down to 5 to begin with.  No way am I going further down to 4.  By the way, what is that "1st notch back" anyway, if not a safety ??   

Offline MarkH

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2007, 02:46:14 AM »
The 83 has a manually activated transfer bar safety that is engaged by pulling the hammer back slightly to the first click, and leaving it to rest there.  If the cylinder unlocks, you've gone too far.

I expect the safety works as designed, but I still carry four in the 83.

Offline 2 dogs

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2007, 03:23:07 AM »
What I like best about the FA's is the precision. Not just the way they are built, but the way they shoot.  I have a Linebaugh 500 that I would carry in bad critter country.....so only having 4 rounds in the FA does not bother me.

Offline Dusty Miller

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2007, 04:32:50 AM »
Yeah, if four rounds don't put'm down then either the critter has skipped into the bush or has eaten you for breakfast! :D
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Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2007, 04:09:08 PM »
Mark;
Not to be argumentative, but once again to be precise, Mdl. 97's are the only FA's to have a transfer bar. A transfer bar is a device to transfer the energy from a falling hammer to a firing pin. The 97's transfer bar slides withiin the hammer. When the hammer is down and the trigger forward, the hammer does not contact the firing pin ; it can only contact it to transfer the blow when the trigger is pulled, and the transfer bar is in line with the firing pin.Drop the gun, beat the hammer, whatever. Same principle, but different mechanics with the Ruger, or old Iver Johnson.
   However, instead of a transfer bar, the 83 has a device to prevent the hammer from resting on the firing pin, provided that device is activated as I described above. That gizmo (part # 34) is called a safety bar. You could think of it functioning the opposite of a transfer bar.As you know, if it's not properly activated the hammer rests on the firing pin. When pulling the trigger on an 83, the hammer strikes the firing pin directly.
Ak guy,
Yep, that first notch is called a "safety notch", and believe me, I don't care how anybody else carries their 83's as long as they're not pointed in my direction . As I said, I carried mine loaded with 5 rounds for 10 years. For me, the drill of loading 5 and engaging the safety bar/notch was more aggravation and the process less safe, particularly in hunting conditions-cold, rain, snow,-than loading 4, as described.
Ruger, incidentally, didn't develop New Models with transfer bars for fun. They did it following millions of dollars in legal costs and settled lawsuits resulting from accidental discharges. Some involved inexperienced shooters, but others did not.
Naphtali, this detail might be a little annoying for you to sort through, but you were correct in your original post in stating that the FA Mdl. 83 .454's do not have an automatically engaging safety. These posts show there are different views on how to make them satisfactorily or most safe.


Offline MarkH

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2007, 05:47:36 PM »
Ken,

How dare you show up my heretofore unchallenged superior store of FA knowledge  ;)  I even went so far as to dig out an 83 manual and lo and behold, you are correct not only in your terminology but also your mechanical explanation.  I understood most of the mechanics of it but failed in the terminology ... as well as my cylinder lock explanation per the manual ... I've never had occasion to take an 83 apart past the bolt spring but it will make for an interesting afternoon sometime.

Be that as it may, I bent over once upon a time and my Freedom Arms 97 fell clean out of my crossdraw holster and landed on its hammer.  I do not recall now whether it was actually loaded at the time ... I don't think it was ... but it sure did make me a lot more conservative on the use of safety devices in single action revolvers.  Particularly when hunting.

Offline Naphtali

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2007, 04:34:11 AM »
After we clear the hyperbole, actuality is the Model 83 has a 4-shot cylinder.

Is there a reason that Freedom Arms does not port their Model 97 firing system to their larger framed revolver -- other than cost?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline MarkH

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2007, 05:09:34 AM »
The answer has mostly to do with trigger quality and/or perceived trigger quality.

After we clear the hyperbole, actuality is the Model 83 has a 4-shot cylinder.

Is there a reason that Freedom Arms does not port their Model 97 firing system to their larger framed revolver -- other than cost?

Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2007, 10:54:21 AM »
After we clear the hyperbole, actuality is the Model 83 has a 4-shot cylinder.

Is there a reason that Freedom Arms does not port their Model 97 firing system to their larger framed revolver -- other than cost?
Yeah, I don't know... I suspect that it's the cost. Patents exist on both guns. One would have to wonder, " why should I mess with success ?" And let's face it, the 83 IS successful. Frankly, I like mine just the way they are.

Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2007, 11:11:05 AM »
Ken,

How dare you show up my heretofore unchallenged superior store of FA knowledge  ;)  I even went so far as to dig out an 83 manual and lo and behold, you are correct not only in your terminology but also your mechanical explanation.  I understood most of the mechanics of it but failed in the terminology ... as well as my cylinder lock explanation per the manual ... I've never had occasion to take an 83 apart past the bolt spring but it will make for an interesting afternoon sometime.

Be that as it may, I bent over once upon a time and my Freedom Arms 97 fell clean out of my crossdraw holster and landed on its hammer.  I do not recall now whether it was actually loaded at the time ... I don't think it was ... but it sure did make me a lot more conservative on the use of safety devices in single action revolvers.  Particularly when hunting.
Mark,
Deepest apologies for offending various sensibilities. It will probably never happen again, given your widely known deep storehouse of knowledge. In Zimbabwe nearly 17 years ago, I bent over and had a Redhawk fall out of my shoulder holster because I had carelessly failed to snap it in. I can still see it landing on its hammer, and standing in the dirt, muzzle staring at my heart. My mind raced to thank Bill Ruger for his tranfer bars, because of course I had a live round under the hammer. My mantra remains simple: No transfer bar is just fine with me, but I'll carry that chamber empty under the hammer.
Okay, I'm completely done flogging this horse.

Offline MarkH

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2007, 03:09:47 PM »
'Twas a joke Ken ... hence the smiling face thing  ;D

I enjoy nothing more than a good conversation about FA's and have no significant ego.

Offline shilo

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2007, 03:25:09 PM »
I load 5. As has been stated, FA's 83 has a mechanical saftey. It is a sliding bar that slides up and physically prevents the hammer from reaching the firing pin. It is applied by move the hammer back slightly and then letting the hammer down. I have no problem carrying this way; no different than carring a bolt action rifle with a round in the chamber and the safty on.

Offline shilo

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Re: Actual cylinder capacity?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2007, 03:29:14 PM »
One of the benefits to the 83 not having a transfer bar is it is easier to get a better trigger on the 83. The 97's triggers from what I've heard are usually not as good and it is more difficult to get as good as trigger on a 97.