How much powder to use

[handirifle]

Howdy all, as you could tell I don't know a whole lot about ML.  I do have some books on it but am wondering about where to start on charges.

I have some round ball, but also have some sabot rounds (300gr) and some power belt rounds (295gr).  I got this rifle from my dad, and my brother said it shot the sabot rounds very well.

It is a Montgomery Ward 50 cal, made by Navy Arms.  It is a percusion cap model.  I'll be using BP and Pyrodex, whichever works out best.  Of the 300gr bullets, their numbers are limited so I'm hoping to get off to a decent start from you guys.

I'm not an inline fan, per se, but I like some conveniences too, thus the belted bullets.

Also, if you could, some idea of theses charge/load levels of power and effective range for deer and maybe elk someday.

Oh, forgot to ask.  How does ML loads like a 50 cal with say, 80gr of powder, compare to a BP cartridge level of power?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[jh45gun]

Well every gun and load is different so you start say at 70 grains of black or pyrodex and work your way up 5 grains at a time. Black is not like smokeless as 5 grain increments is fine anything less is a waste of time. I would think that your gun would probably have a 100 grain maximum charge. Maybe a bit more but a 100 grains of powder is more than  plenty.  I would start at 70 grains as I said and work up until you get a load that shoots. I would stick with black as pyrodex is dirtier and does not ignite as well in colder weather so you would not be gaining anything by using it. My opinion having used both. Since you say it shoots sabots ok besides round balls I would guess your rate of twist is a 1 in 48 which is a compromise twist that is supposed to be ok with both projectiles. Round balls you can will be faster but loose energy faster out past 100 yards. Conicals will hold energy better out farther. Round balls with in their range will kill as good as anything. I would say 100 yards and under though 75 and under I think would be better. To be honest with you I like to shoot both but I am a advocate of close range with muzzle loaders 100 yards is about max for me no matter what I shoot. I think this 200 yard bullcrap is not good as most guys cannot judge distances that well let alone figure out the proper trajectory.  Shooting a muzzle loader is like reloading for a centerfire it may take some time to see what load the gun likes so be prepared to do some shooting and expirementation. You may get lucky and find a load that shoots good right away. Then it may take some time to find the load that your gun likes. When you do keep it. As far as balls go there are normally two sizes or some inbetween. For the 50 there is the .490 and .495 round ball. One may shoot better than the other in your particular gun. You may have to expriement with patch thickness too. What I have found in my 54 cal guns I get better luck with the larger ball and a thinner patch I use a .535  ball and a 10 thickness patch while others may use a .530  ball and a 15 to 18 size patch. Same with the 50 you may find the larger ball shoots better but you may need a thinner patch depending on the barrel size or you may find the smaller ball works with a thicker patch. again shooting and expirementation is the key. Now as far as muzzle loaders compared to cartridge guns. The 45/70 is named because it was 45 caliber and it used 70 grains of powder. with a 500 grain bullet. Since this load worked well in the rifles but kicked hard in the carbines the military used they made a ligher bullet carbine load as well. A 45/70 load with 70 grains of black will take any animal in North America. Now since they changed the cartridge case from the old balloon style case to what we use now most folks can only stuff about 65 grains of black powder in a 45/70 case and it still will kill most anything in North America and I would say most of Africa too so a muzzle loader with a decent bullet/ ball combination and 70 grains or powder or more is a potent combination capable of doing the job.

[handirifle]

jh45
Thanks.  You answered all my questions and some I didn't ask.  As mentioned I have loaded some of the 45-70 in BP loads, and there IS a real learning curve there.

Reason told me the power levels should be the same, or close anyway, but wasn't sure.

The round balls I have, I think, are .490 but will have to look again.

I have heard that before about the twist rate and you might be right.  I've only fired this rifle once so I have no idea how accurate it is.  I figured the 100gr  level would be the limit, but I suspect the recoil might get to the top, for me, before the powder charge does.  Especially with the 300gr conical.

As for the range, I am self limiting to 50-100yds with any open sights, even the peep sights on my Winchester 375 BB are hard for me to see well for 100yds shots.  So I guess the 200yd artillary shots are out for me for sure.

Another question,
After havint the 45-70, I've noticed, you seldom or never seem to see anyone shooting 400-500gr slugs from a muzzle loader.  Why is that?

[jh45gun]

They make them. I shot a 460 grain great plains bullet out of my 50 caliber NEF Huntsman and I know a lot of the conicals for the 45 are long and heavy and weigh 400 to 500 grains if not more. The inline group use sabots and pistol bullets or lighter bullets to try to get that 200 plus yard trajectory and to make them flatter shooting with a heavier slug that I use ( I only use lead conicals) I know my trajectory is going to be more of a rainbow type.  Myself I like that large all lead bullet going out the muzzle over a sabot/ bullet combination. Plus I can make my own conicals and balls  I do not have to rely on buying a plastic cup and manufactured bullets.

[Ramrod]

Well every gun and load is different so you start say at 70 grains of black or pyrodex and work your way up 5 grains at a time. Black is not like smokeless as 5 grain increments is fine anything less is a waste of time. I would think that your gun would probably have a 100 grain maximum charge. Maybe a bit more but a 100 grains of powder is more than  plenty.  I would start at 70 grains as I said and work up until you get a load that shoots. I would stick with black as pyrodex is dirtier and does not ignite as well in colder weather so you would not be gaining anything by using it. My opinion having used both. Since you say it shoots sabots ok besides round balls I would guess your rate of twist is a 1 in 48 which is a compromise twist that is supposed to be ok with both projectiles. Round balls you can will be faster but loose energy faster out past 100 yards. Conicals will hold energy better out farther. Round balls with in their range will kill as good as anything. I would say 100 yards and under though 75 and under I think would be better. To be honest with you I like to shoot both but I am a advocate of close range with muzzle loaders 100 yards is about max for me no matter what I shoot. I think this 200 yard bullcrap is not good as most guys cannot judge distances that well let alone figure out the proper trajectory.  Shooting a muzzle loader is like reloading for a centerfire it may take some time to see what load the gun likes so be prepared to do some shooting and expirementation. You may get lucky and find a load that shoots good right away. Then it may take some time to find the load that your gun likes. When you do keep it. As far as balls go there are normally two sizes or some inbetween. For the 50 there is the 490 and 495 round ball. One may shoot better than the other in your particular gun. You may have to expriement with patch thickness too. What I have found in my 54 cal guns I get better luck with the larger ball and a thinner patch I use a 535 grain ball and a 10 thickness patch while others may use a 530 grain ball and a 15 to 18 size patch. Same with the 50 you may find the larger ball shoots better but you may need a thinner patch depending on the barrel size or you may find the smaller ball works with a thicker patch. again shooting and expirementation is the key. Now as far as muzzle loaders compared to cartridge guns. The 45/70 is named because it was 45 caliber and it used 70 grains of powder. with a 500 grain bullet. Since this load worked well in the rifles but kicked hard in the carbines the military used they made a ligher bullet carbine load as well. A 45/70 load with 70 grains of black will take any animal in North America. Now since they changed the cartridge case from the old balloon style case to what we use now most folks can only stuff about 65 grains of black powder in a 45/70 case and it still will kill most anything in North America and I would say most of Africa too so a muzzle loader with a decent bullet/ ball combination and 70 grains or powder or more is a potent combination capable of doing the job.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not nit-picking this post. But I want to correct the error for the new guy who might have a hard time finding 535 grain roundballs in .54 caliber.
I believe jh45gun meant to say .530 or .535 (inch) diameter balls.

[jh45gun]

You are correct that is what I meant and for him it would be .490 or .495  as he was talking about a 50 cal I will go back and change it correctly thanks.

[crow_feather]

There are rights and wrongs in this world, but you have to keep your balls straight

[Slamfire]

The standard minie ball load durin' the Civil War was 60 grains of black under those minie balls which were around 450 grains, I think. That load has plenty of power for anything you might want to shoot. Lead conicals aren't very popular, as patched round balls work very, very well, and the recoil is reduce. Start shootin' conicals with 80 grains of powder sure gets your attention. If your rifle has one of those curved butts, don't even think about it. 

[jh45gun]

The standard minie ball load durin' the Civil War was 60 grains of black under those minie balls which were around 450 grains, I think. That load has plenty of power for anything you might want to shoot. Lead conicals aren't very popular, as patched round balls work very, very well, and the recoil is reduce. Start shootin' conicals with 80 grains of powder sure gets your attention. If your rifle has one of those curved butts, don't even think about it. 

I have a 54 cal with a Green Mountain barrel One in 70 twist for a ball shooter. I do however like to shoot lead conicals out of my fast twist 50 cal Nef Huntsman and My 54 cal Underhammer with an other Green Mountain Barrel only is one is a fast twist too. I prefer lead conicals because I can cast my own instead of buying expensive sabot/bullet combinations.