Author Topic: Remington is really getting bad. Off center chamber Part ------2------- (Read 2288 times)

1longshot · « **on:** August 30, 2006, 08:08:33 PM »

For anyone who hasn't read my first post, and is reading this post you should probably read that one first.

It has been nearly a year since I bought that 243 LSS. I recently got it back from Hart Barrels. It shoots great of course and also crisper in feel than any other Remmy in my safe. I guess I should expect that, I paid an extra $600.00 for the custom work and I am happy I did it. With that in mind I began to think of what was going on at Remington and that I was or seemed to be the only person having problems with my Remingtons. So I thought about it a while and after careful consideration I purchased another. I even looked at the chamber first. It was a Remington 700 LVSF in 308, J-Lock. Guess what it looks like in the chamber? Yep it is undercut with a small reamer, a mal aligned chamber what ever you want to call it; where the rifling starts there is a deeper gouge on one side of the chamber and practically none on the other side where the metal tapers off like a crecent moon. It is not as pronounced as was the .243 but still noticable.

You might think I am crazy for buying the rifle, but I bought it primarily to see if what I see in the barrel will actually affect accuracy. You see recently we were shipped 2 of the new 2006 30-06 Centenial 30-06's. I looked down the bore of both of them and in one I noticed no defect but in the other it was identicle to my new 308 LVSF. I am starting to wonder if any of the people who own all of these Remingtons have really taken a close look at their throat area. None of my older ones show these problems I started noticing it in rilfes from 1998

Well with all this being said I am going to bed the 308 rifle and see how it shoots. If it shoots poorly, I probably will re barrel it. Then I will have two barrels from Remington that aren't good. Also, I am going to start looking at as many of the Remington bores as I can to see if this is predominant in our rilfes.

Maybe this has been happening all along and no one noticed it! Sarcasm and Uncertaintly intended.

I bet it will shoot an inch. We'll see.. I will let everyone know the results when I get them. It will probably be a little while.

1longshot

jvs · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2006, 08:52:31 PM »

Have you taken this observation over to the Gunsmithing Forum ?

From what I am hearing lately at the Range from Bench Rest Shooters, Remington is having Bore Problems. If it wasn't for the 700 Receiver, Bench Rest Shooters wouldn't bother with Remingtons at all.

35Rem · « **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2006, 04:36:50 AM »

Quote

Well with all this being said I am going to bed the 308 rifle and see how it shoots.

Here's a novel idea, try shooting the rifle BEFORE you start messing with it.

I had a 700 VLS that would consistantly shoot under an inch, more like 0.75", out of the box w/Factory ammo, not even match stuff (308 Win). I don't understand why you won't give them a chance the way Remington put them together.

Questor · « **Reply #3 on:** August 31, 2006, 04:52:13 AM »

I agree with 35Rem on this one. It's what I do. I try it and if it shoots good, it's OK. I've only had one barrel (not in a Remington) that needed to go back to the factory. It looked good except that the crown had some minor flaws in it. That was enough to wreck the accuracy. The factory re-crowned it and the problem was solved.

Zachary · « **Reply #4 on:** August 31, 2006, 05:20:47 AM »

I agree. I'm curious to see how that gun shoots now. I also agree that re-crown jobs are usually all that I have done (if anything) to my stock 700s. I really can't say anything about the chambers in my stock 700s because I really haven't paid attention. Then again, when all of them shoot sub moa, why bother?

Zachary

safetysheriff · « **Reply #5 on:** August 31, 2006, 01:04:25 PM »

i can hold a rifle up to a light....a single-shot NEF', a Rem', a Weatherby, etc.etc. ..... and if i don't have my line of sight centered in the bore properly, or the light reflects in a 'funny' manner down the bore, i think i see one hell of a problem with the rifle! BUT, when i move the rifle around and the bore gets the light at a different angle, etc.etc. .... i see in these rifles that nothing is wrong. i see that the throating is excellent, the rifling starts off with sharp, clean lines, and somebody knew what they were doing when chambering the thing.

i REALLY wonder if you are not having some such problem. i have tuned triggers on Rem's for a few years now and then shot them off benches wherein i saw results pointing to Remington as producing an EXCELLENT, Very Accurate rifle. my friends and i have shot some otherwise-stock, bolt-action Remingtons that would be a welcome addition to the gun-safe of anybody on this site who is being reasonable about it........simply because of their accuracy. all that stuff about 'plastic' stocks and so on on aside, i want an accurate, reliable rifle. Remington is, therefore, tied with Weatherby as my first choice in a blued, factory rifle. I'd make it behind Weatherby or Ruger in a stainless just because of the metallurgy. (that's just my opinion)

are you possibly mistaken about all this?

ss'

TNrifleman · « **Reply #6 on:** August 31, 2006, 01:14:51 PM »

Quote from: safetysheriff on August 31, 2006, 01:04:25 PM

i can hold a rifle up to a light....a single-shot NEF', a Rem', a Weatherby, etc.etc. ..... and if i don't have my line of sight centered in the bore properly, or the light reflects in a 'funny' manner down the bore, i think i see one hell of a problem with the rifle! BUT, when i move the rifle around and the bore gets the light at a different angle, etc.etc. .... i see in these rifles that nothing is wrong. i see that the throating is excellent, the rifling starts off with sharp, clean lines, and somebody knew what they were doing when chambering the thing.

i REALLY wonder if you are not having some such problem. i have tuned triggers on Rem's for a few years now and then shot them off benches wherein i saw results pointing to Remington as producing an EXCELLENT, Very Accurate rifle. my friends and i have shot some otherwise-stock, bolt-action Remingtons that would be a welcome addition to the gun-safe of anybody on this site who is being reasonable about it........simply because of their accuracy. all that stuff about 'plastic' stocks and so on on aside, i want an accurate, reliable rifle. Remington is, therefore, tied with Weatherby as my first choice in a blued, factory rifle. I'd make it behind Weatherby or Ruger in a stainless just because of the metallurgy. (that's just my opinion)

are you possibly mistaken about all this?

ss'

_+1

beemanbeme · « **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2006, 02:00:08 PM »

Question: did you shoot the .243 before you shipped it off to have $600 worth of custom work done???

Also, I agree with everybody in that you should shoot the rifle as it came from the box. If you start tinkering around with it, you may well void any warrenty.

sniperVLS · « **Reply #8 on:** August 31, 2006, 03:00:06 PM »

Like the others I dont understand why you'd go to all that trouble of looking down a bore b4 you even try it.

out of the box, ALL of my Remmies are Sub MOA, 2 are sub half MOA. I dont tinker with anything until I break them in, and the ONLY thing Ive done afterwards is adjust the trigger pull.

I wonder why some of us have dealt with many many models and all shoot great, while others keep getting melons?

Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm

jvs · « **Reply #9 on:** August 31, 2006, 08:42:27 PM »

Take it easy on the poor guy boys. Remington has been having limited problems with their barrels. Not more than what is acceptable under Stastical Process Control though.

I quoted some expert shooters earlier in this topic. While it's true that those shooters don't like Remington Barrels, if you look at their rifles there is nothing original about them except the receivers, which are mostly all 700's. It was a Bench Rest Shooter that alerted me to the problems of Remington Barrels, which lead me to agree with longshot. He has brought something public that I have heard more than three years ago.

It doesn't mean a Remington won't shoot accurately. It just means the Production Standards have dropped once again. If you are a stickler for details, then finding something like this in a new rifle is somewhat surprising. One day it might become 'old news' and common.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2006, 05:26:59 AM »

If you are a stickler for details, why are you buying a production rifle of any make. Why not spend several thousands of dollars for a one off like the stool shooters do so they can look down their noses at us poor folks that shoot "box guns". The fact that a fellow shoots bench doesn't automatically make him an "expert shooter". A lot of them merely have a lot of money and need something to do on weekends.

I do like the ambiguous statement "remington has dropped their production standards YET again". Do you have any support for this? I have been buying Rem rifles since the 70s. At least one a year. And except for the god-awful impressed checkering, I haven't noticed any great drop off of quality. But then, when I buy a Remmie, I expect a quality made PRODUCTION rifle that is gonna need to be tweaked a bit to make it do its best. I could pay a smith to adjust the trigger, work the barrel over with a few hundred strokes of JB, bed the action and so forth. But I can do that work myself. It keeps me out of trouble during the winter,

And my question still stands unanswered: was there any conversation with Remington before the one rifle was sent to have $600 worth of work done on it?

jvs · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2006, 10:51:19 AM »

Your question about whether he had a conversation with Remington prior to getting all that work done is a fair question. And the right thing to do would have been giving Remington a chance to either rectify the problem or refuse to do so, if it was really a production flaw.

But your depiction of Bench Rest Shooters is way off. I have found those people more helpful than anyone else. Bench Rest Shooters take the time from what they are doing at the range to help people who have problems. I have seen this happen numerous times over the years. More often than not, they can diagnose a problem with one of your 'box guns' in a matter of minutes. For them, Competition shooting is not just a science, but a passion. As well it should, when the competiton in which you participate requires you to put 5 shots in a single-clean-hole.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2006, 02:42:51 PM »

I guess that's what makes a horse race. I'm not saying stool shooters cannot be very knowledgeable but I certainly don't stand it awe of them. You see, I been around them a bit myself. They're like golfers, fishermen, and such. You have a few very good, a few good, some bad and some very bad. The majority kinda fall in the middle. I've often said, if a shooter won a match while chewing strawberry gum, the next week the firing line would smell like a salad bowl and PC mag would be printing definitive articles about the advantages of juicy fruit over speermint. Bet on it.

jvs · « **Reply #13 on:** September 01, 2006, 03:26:57 PM »

1longshot would make a good bench rest shooter. He already deems it necessary to delve into the deepest, darkest crevices of mass produced guns. I think he should have a Mentor. I can see him with a Custom Stock, a Hart Barrel and a Electric Trigger. Those are the type of personalities that, sooner or later, come out with the good stuff. The tinkers come out with fresh ideas, when 'good enough' isn't good enough.

1longshot · « **Reply #14 on:** September 01, 2006, 09:49:30 PM »

I want to thank everyone for their time in responding to this topic. No offense taken by any means for any response either. All points of view are valid. I would like to clear things up however. I did contact Remington about the first barrel, and I still have it. It is still screwed up, and even more visible now that I can look at it out of the action. This is why in my post I requested that anyone reading this article read the Part I of " Remington is really getting bad. Off center chamber," my original post. I don't know if that was the exact title, but it is close.

Secondly, for those who did not read above I am giving this barrel a chance. I am however in the process of bedding, floating, and adjusting the trigger. I do this to all of my bolt action rifles. I never claimed that Remies don't need tweeking, though my VSSF .223 didn't require anything to drive tacks, its the only one I haven't messed with except for the trigger.

I am guessing the 308 will shoot good, but who knows. I had a Model 7 SS .243, that was pretty bad, wish I would have kept it and rebarreled it. The groups were very, well lets say, sporadic. Probably should have kept it. Nice action!

So why am I bringing this defect topic up? It is not because I dislike Remingtons, not at all. It is because I am noticeing things I have not noticed about my Remington guns in the past. I really like my Remingtons a lot. That is why I continue to buy them.

For those that think I might be imagining these issues, I am sorry to let you know my eyes aren't playing tricks on me and neither am I holding the barrel in such a way to accentuate the flaws and defects nor am I getting false impressions or halucinations. I am very attentive to detail. I do however know exactly what is meant by this phenomenon of imagining imperfectoins looking down the bore. Light reflects differently as I roll the barrel through my hands and as I hold my eye in various positions. This is not what I am seeing. There is a scoop of metal that is definatley protruding on one side of the throat more than the other. I have seen it on my .243 barell, my 308. barrel and also a brand new Centenial 30-06, the one with the flutes. I am not going to justify this statement to any other people who don't think it exists any more. I might however mention each time I see the flaw in guns at work, just to inform the public.

Please know, I don't know that this defect will cause any problems as far as hunting rifle accuracy goes. Lets call that inch and a half groups for grins. But I do know as a picky, detail oriented person, this is the last place I want to see a defect in the gun. Beleive me I have seen defects other than this chamber/throat issue on other Remingtons, maybe it is because I am looking for them and others aren't. Maybe I am the only one getting these guns. I seriously doubt it though.

I do expect my Remingtons to shoot an inch or less, all my others do better than that. Maybe that is to much to ask. If this 308 won't do it, when I get the money I will re-barrel it.

For a "Varmint rifle" that costs $700.00. It better shoot good, and it better be made somewhat well. I mean come on, I have owned Howas that shoot just as good and look just as good for half the price. Why didn't I just buy a Howa then? Because I like Remingtons.

I guess I probably sound like a hipocrit then. I don't know. I don't think Remington would take the barrel after it has been removed and replace it even if it is screwed up in thier assesment of it. In fact I don't know why I am really writing this accept to vent that I am not getting what I think I should get.

I think I should get what I have gotten in the past from Remington. A good shooting rifle. We'll see about this one. If it shoots good Remington will be known to me as "a company that puts out a rifle with noticably screwed up chambers/Bores that shoot well." Yeah, that sounds good! Maybe they have always been that way? Maybe it was just my turn to get one? I don't know only time will tell.

Thank you all again for responding.

It is nice to have some experience here at the table

1longshot.

sniperVLS · « **Reply #15 on:** September 02, 2006, 05:05:08 AM »

Thanks for the clarification.

You're nuts(I mean that in the best possible way) for still "liking" them after you've received several deformed barrels, but its youre $$ and if youre willing to work with them, so be it

Noone here will blame you for bashing them seeing as you have received not one, but 2 or 3 of them.

I guess I could pull all of mine out from the safe and check but I'm the type that doesnt mess with what gives me sub MOA performance(All 7 are of the HS Prec. variety mated with Remmies varmint barrels). If I ever get a bad shooting Remmy, I'll be checking out the throat as well as other areas, but it hasnt happened in 3.5 decades and I pray it never does. If they have a deformed throat, great. As long as they allow me to hit softballs at 500 yards, they can have all the throat problems in the world as long as they perform to my liking. This is one of those "what you dont know cant hurt you" situations

You know that cheapo Rem 710 people loathe? The one that comes with a Bushnell scope mounted atop? My cousin got one at walmart for a whopping $320.00, and other than the stock feeling odd and kicking like 2 mules(.270), it will shoot cheapo American Eagle FMJs or any other off-the-shelf, Non -premium ammo under 1 MOA with the right person at the helm. The gun looks likes a joke, and compared to my rifles and others, it feels like one, but for a garbage scope and that barrel that looks like it was given no attention during manufacturing, it shoots nickels at 100 yards, and stays on track out the 300(the furthest Ive shot it at). So when people attack the 710, I have no doubt they are coming across some junky ones, but my experience with it shows the opposite.

I pray my obsession with remington pays off and the Gun Gods take notes and dont allow me to come across a stinker, but when it happens, I'll be here to let everyone know if and how they handled the situation.

Best of luck to you...

-Aaron-

nomosendero · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2006, 05:41:59 AM »

I am high on Remingtons, esp. the Sendero, but their quality could be enhanced a bit. Last year I sent my & my brother's 25-06 Sendero's off to a very good gunsmith in Montana to get them Ackley Improved & accuracy enhancements. It turns out that my brother's rifle had a slightly offset chamber. Our gunsmith was able to clean that up & now both are precision rifles by our standards at least.
I believe that most of us would pay 50-75 bucks more for the higher end Rems at least if they spent
1 additional hour making sure they have things lined up.

JMO

beemanbeme · « **Reply #17 on:** September 02, 2006, 06:58:48 AM »

I won't be knocking the 710 for a couple of reasons. One kinda poignant. I was at a public range I used to frequent and a young man came up to show me his new 710. I knew a little bit about the fellow and knew he'd probably been passing up lunch for quite a while to gather up the funds needed to buy the rifle. I hefted it a couple of times, gave him a big grin and said, "boy, that sure comes up nice." That's kinda what happened to me back in the dark ages when I bought a Savage 340. Now I know that the 340 would run the 788 some close competition for ugliest rifle ever made, but then, to me, it was the most beautiful rifle in the world.
Secondly, if you're a box a year deer hunter, it shows you don't have to have $2500 tied up in a rifle and scope to kill a deer.

As far as paying a bit more for a smoother product, I daresay most of the folks in here would do that but do we really represent the rank and file of Rem/Win/Rug/etc's customers? Maybe that would be a reason to patronize a small gun shop rather than a big box store. Maybe the small guy would let you have a good smith look the rifle over before you bought it?

? Whatdaya think?
If I'm jacking this thread, never mind.

nomosendero · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2006, 06:21:38 PM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on September 02, 2006, 06:58:48 AM

I won't be knocking the 710 for a couple of reasons. One kinda poignant. I was at a public range I used to frequent and a young man came up to show me his new 710. I knew a little bit about the fellow and knew he'd probably been passing up lunch for quite a while to gather up the funds needed to buy the rifle. I hefted it a couple of times, gave him a big grin and said, "boy, that sure comes up nice." That's kinda what happened to me back in the dark ages when I bought a Savage 340. Now I know that the 340 would run the 788 some close competition for ugliest rifle ever made, but then, to me, it was the most beautiful rifle in the world.
Secondly, if you're a box a year deer hunter, it shows you don't have to have $2500 tied up in a rifle and scope to kill a deer.
As far as paying a bit more for a smoother product, I daresay most of the folks in here would do that but do we really represent the rank and file of Rem/Win/Rug/etc's customers? Maybe that would be a reason to patronize a small gun shop rather than a big box store. Maybe the small guy would let you have a good smith look the rifle over before you bought it?? Whatdaya think?
If I'm jacking this thread, never mind.

I agree
That is the reason that I was refering to the higher end Rems only in regards to paying a little more for the product. The rank & file aren't buying those anyway & would not affect the sale of the std. models.

jerkface11 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 03, 2006, 03:27:45 AM »

Why not make a chamber casting so you can post pictures of the off-center chamber.

Jasper243 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2006, 04:27:22 AM »

I just got a super great deal on a used 700 titanium in 260 rem. Once home I cleaned it and notice that the flat edges of the spiral cuts on the bolt actually touch the edge of the reciever when closing. This causes it to be stiff and squeak a little. Lubrication didn't do it, so I will actually have to lightly hone the edge that is making contact. I'm all for tight tolerances, but this is a bit rediculous considering this is one of their higher end production guns.

Jasper243

sniperVLS · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2006, 05:34:19 AM »

Jasper.....

Didnt you notice this b4 you bought it? I assume it was such a good price that any imperfections were worth the hassle

jro45 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2006, 07:54:51 AM »

I own alot of Remington rifles and have only once had a problem where I had to get my action bedded after shooting about 300 rounds. Maybe it good luck but I never had your problems. I think Remington rifles are the Best.

jvs · « **Reply #23 on:** September 03, 2006, 11:54:14 AM »

longshot,

I know this is off topic, but I'd be interested in knowing if you plan to shoot your Remington .30-06 100 yr Commerative rifle. I bought one also, and so far it sits in a dark and lonely place.

When I got wind of the other Limited Edition Remington .30-06 LSFP-BLK 100 yr Commerative, I bought one of those too. And it sits right next to the Fluted rifle.

sniperVLS · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2006, 01:14:02 PM »

again, offtopic...

jvs, you got this years CDL Limited rifle?

you guys are nuts! Go shoot those babies! Or send them to me and I'll break them in

Take pics of them together and post them, or email me. I enjoy drooling!

jvs · « **Reply #25 on:** September 04, 2006, 12:30:24 AM »

Quote from: sniperVLS on September 03, 2006, 01:14:02 PM

again, offtopic...

jvs, you got this years CDL Limited rifle?

you guys are nuts! Go shoot those babies! Or send them to me and I'll break them in

Take pics of them together and post them, or email me. I enjoy drooling!

I did get one of the CDL Commeratives with the Stainless Fluted Barrel. Soon afterwards, I was at the gunshop and the owner asked me if I wanted the other .30-06 Commerative that Remington put out, which is basically a BDL Laminated with a Laser Engraved buttstock - He had three. Originally, I told him I didn't want one of the LS's, but after thinking about it for a week, I decided to get one. Since they only made 100 of them, and are laser engraved as "One of One Hundred", I took a chance. Just in time too, because I got his last one.

I will try to get them out and take pices for you sniperVLS.

jvs · « **Reply #26 on:** September 04, 2006, 04:38:30 AM »

The first pic shows the difference between the floor plates of the two comemoratives. Obviously, the CDL SF is Stainless and the LSFP is blued.

The second pic shows the Laser Engraving on the Laminated Stock.

I could not get the right lighting to show a full image of them both side by side.

sniperVLS · « **Reply #27 on:** September 04, 2006, 04:52:24 AM »

I had no idea they put it right on the laminate stock, dont get rid of that! And if you do, let me know b4 you make a move

Thanks for the pics.

jvs · « **Reply #28 on:** September 04, 2006, 05:17:08 AM »

Sorry, but all of my rifles will be part of my legacy. They are not for me to get rid of. If for some health reason I decide to sell out, they will be posted for sale here in GBO first.