Glass Bedding & scope mounts (2 questiions)

[stratocaster]

What glass bedding products would you recemmend for glass and pillar bedding a remington 700 in 338 ultra in a laminated stock?  I have always used Brownells Acra-glass but I never did a big bore mag like this. Will the Acra-glass hold up or should I use the Brownells Stele bed stuff?  I like the idea of the steel bed (impregnated with stainless steel) but is it worth the $40 they want for it when I can get the std Acra-glass for $10?
My second question is, what scope rings and bases should I use?  I like the Burris signature series in dual dovetail, but will these keep the scope from shifting on this heavy recoil gun?

[SeanD]

im not an expert on the bedding, but from some recommendations from some other people i bought adjustable pillars and acraglass from brownells.  For the scope bases and rings i did a lot of research and decided on weaver stlye cross slot bases (warne makes steel ones) and burris signature zee rings with the inserts.  This should be as rock solid as it gets except for maybe talleys, and for much less money.  No lapping required, and the inserts are supposed to really grip the scope and not leave any marks.  And they are detachable, so in case of unlikely scope failure i can use the irons im leaving on the rifle, and the weaver bases are low enough too see over.  I decided against the dual dovetails because by design, they have to be weaker than the cross slots, and they arent detachable.  Although, they do look better.

[RON KONTOWSKY]

I perferr the acra glass gel it gives better control when handleing, and yes will take the abuse and still ask for more! installing the pillars is also a great idea, and will aid in the long term accuracy of the rifle, as long as you have previous pillar bedding jobs under your belt all Will go well .
If not just do the standard glass bedding because pillar bedding is more then just enlargeing the stock bolt hole to half inch and inserting pillars.
GOOD LUCK!

RON KONTOWSKY

[Mikey]

stratocaster:  I've bedded a whole bunch of rifles and will use either the Brownells bedding compound or one of the others that comes in two tubes that you have to mix together in equal proportions.  Both have worked just the way they should and I haven't had any problems using either.  I do not care for the Brownells liquid bedding compound - it runs to easily.  I prefer the stuff that looks like brown goop, smells like brown goop, handles like sticky brown goop and sets up in about 15 minutes.  This gives me plenty of time to apply all the 'brown goop' that I need to, in the barrel channel and around the action.  When I seat the action to the stock after applying this stuff, I get a bit of the bedding squeezed out all around the area I bedded.  After about 15-20 minutes, or even a bit longer, you can take a razor blade or a thin sharp knife to the stuff to remove what has been squeezed out.  After that it sets right up and I have never had to re-bed an action after using either of those products, which are both advertised in the Brownells catalog.

As for scope mounts and bases- I have finally settled with the Weaver mounts.  I have used this one, and that one, and the adjustable ones and the ones made just for the scope I am using, and guess what - Weaver mounts and bases work just as well an any others.  You may wish to loc-tite the mounting screws to be sure they don't work loose on you after shooting.  I forgot to do that, once, and it cost me a nice heavy bodied 4 point that year.  Hope this helps.  Mikey.

[gunnut69]

I've tried other epoxies but always returned to Brownells Acraglass..  I too prefer the gel and in high stress jobs sometimes mix in aluminum powder.  It reinforces the epoxy matrix without adding too much weight..  Remember pillar bedding isn't done to improve accuracy.  It's done to maintain accuracy..  Once the bedding is just right, pillar bedding will prevent the stock compressing from the torsion of the action screws and changing that bedding.  Accraglass will withstand a tremendous amount of abuse without shattering.  Some others which cure harder will shatter..

[Mr Bill]

Gunnut 69,
I'm preparing to bed a Ruger 77RL. I plan to install pillars also. A first for me for both.

Do I understand correctly that you recommend bedding the action first then installing the pillars? I was under the impression that the reverse was the accepted order.

I'm two for two now regarding gel. I've spoken with two others that prefer the Acraglas and on this string I see two of you prefer the gel. This is going to be a tough decision, which to get. It's seems to boil down to personal preference.

Do you recommend using the Acraglas or Acraglass gel for the pillars or is there something else that's better?

Thanks,
Bill

[gunnut69]

As to gel or liquid, look at it this way.  The gel will pretty much stay where it's put unless physcally moved by the parts being bedded.  The liquid has to be dammed up and restrained to make it stay where it's needed until it sets up..  The liquid is often used to create 'shims' in places where just a bit is needed, by I have used the gel exclusively for many years...  Also the Ruger 77 is a special case..   These rifle should be bedded for certain before the pillars are added..  Also note the front screw being angled is a real pain...  A normal tubular pillar is not used.  There are special kits available for these rifles but I usually use poured in place pillars and the Ruger 77's are the reason I started using them.  Remember the pillars are just there to keep the wood from compressing and ruining the action to floorplate dimensions you have so carefully set up with you bedding..  So after the bedding is complete I bore the holes around the action screws as if I were using normal pillars and simply cast the pillar in place using acraglass..  The screw hole in the acraglass pillar is then drilled a bit oversize to keep the screw fron touching the pillar..  There is no guessing as to the fit of the pillar to the 2 parts it must touch, and the epoxy is almost impossible to compress, even with high loads over long periods of time.  I've never had one come back and the pillars are a perfect fit every time....Quicker too..

[Mr Bill]

Gunnut,
Thank you, I found your method of casting pillars in place quite interesting. I was looking at purchasing the aluminum ones from Brownells. I had thought these would be installed first to elevate the barreled action from the stock slightly to free float the barrel. I was going to do this to see how much and or if the accuracy improved enough to stop there, if not then subsequently bed the receiver, magazine hinge and trigger guard followed by a barrel pressure pad. Some have advised to to it all at once and be done with it. I guess my engineering back ground makes me want to experiment and evaluate the benefits of each phase.
 
My two major fears are bonding the action to the stock and making a big mess. The mess is why I initially favored the gel also. A couple other guys had convinced me to go wth the liquid glass.  Fortunately I haven't placed my order with Brownells yet.

I have a couple questions if you wouldn't mind.
Which release media do you use?
Do you add glass flock or atomized metal to the epoxy for either the bed or pillars or both?
I gather you are using the gel epoxy for both the bedding and the pillars though I wasn't quite sure when I read, "...and simply cast the pillar in place using Acraglass." But, you said earlier exclusively gel.
Do you use a syringe to fill the pillar cavities and or any other area?
And would it matter if there are any small captured air bubbles in the cast pillars?

I'm still in an information gathering mode from those that are experienced, and willing to share, before I try this. :shock:

Thanks
Bill

[LaDano]

gunnut i finally worked up the courage to bed the 700 bdl i talked to you about a couple of months ago. been working to much just havent made time for it. anyway yesterday and last nite i prepped everything and put 4 coats of release agent on everything. this morning i gelled the stock layed the action in and put the floorplate on then the tang screw, and then the lug screw would not start to thread in. looked all over and seen that the gel had gone through the lug screw hole into the chamber, and a small hole on the side blew out the clay and let gel into the chamber al well. i've read all your post with a few good books to boot what can i do to prevent this next time? by the way cleaning that mess was zero fun. thanx again dan

[gunnut69]

Mr Bill
I almost never reinforce a pillar.  The stress they absorb just doesn't require it.  The only stress they should incur is from the action screw tensioning.  When I do the recoil surfaces I use gel exclusively so sometimes just say acraglass,,  I really mean acraglass gel...  The only liquid I use is when flowing the material into a crack in a stock or when using as a shim and the gap is VERY small..  When high impact areas are bedded I sometimes add powdered (atomized) aluminum to add even more shock resistance.  I never add floc to gel acraglass..  I've used almost everything I've heard reccomended as a release agent and have not found anything better than paste wax.  Easy to apply, stays where it's put, and covers well.  To avoid the glass flowing into the areas that could create a mechanical lock use kids modeling clay, the non-drying oil based kind.  Plugs of this clay installed in the action screw hole will push out of the way when the action screw is used.  Another way is to use inletting guide screws, waxed of course.  These will prevent the glass from invading the actions screw holes and save the original action screws.  I would recommend the use of stockmakers hand screws if you screw the floorplate to the action.  If using guide screws I use a length of surgical tubing to hold the action and bottom metal inplace.  Also remember to enlarge the screw holes in the pillars after they've hardened, if the screw is allowed to contact the pillar, accuracy WILL suffer..  A few pinholes won't matter but avoid as much as possible.  I use craft icecream sticks to move the galss around and force the amterial into the action screw holes.  Allow the material to ooze in but never allow it to fille the screw hole from the top.  Force it to puddle on the bottom and fill to the top.  The craft stick is used to keep the puddle forming at the bottom of the hole.  Apply glass to the action and the stock surfaces to be bedded(should already have been relieved)  and poor the bulk of the glass in a mound down the center of the inlet.  This will force the material to the side and out when the action is installed, lessening the chance of trapping air bubbles.  
LaDano
See above.  To keep the glass from places it's not wanted use the clay...  expect there to be extra material in the inlet and this has to go somewhere.  Usually I prefer it to extrude between the action ring and the stock inlet but some always makes it's escape into the magazine cut...  Remove this material after it has kicked over but before it is fully hardened.  This is when I normally loosen the action and remove the overflow.  At this stage it can be cut with a plastic knife which will not damage the blueing or stock finish.  I use a cut down toothbrush handle with an abrupt edge ground on the large end to remove this material.    
In any case excess material that extrudes will destroy any existing stock finish so be certain to protect the entire surface of the stock with masking tape before the pore..good luck from the gunnut69

[LaDano]

thanx I'll try the inletting screws and surgical band just to make sure it stays out the chamber this time. I'm also using the gel and clay with the release agent that came with the acraglass kit. thanx again for the help, that s%$t sure is sticky to get out where its not wanted, gel that is.

[Mr Bill]

Thank you Gunnut69. Your posts are very much appreciated.

LaDano,
Did you abort your first attempt? Did you take it all out to completely start over again on the same rifle and stock?
As you can tell from my posts I haven't tried this yet. I have read that vinegar is suppose to work well for removing the epoxy before it hardens. It also said that it would remove stock finishes too.
Bill

[LaDano]

Mr.Bill I didn't abort yet I cleaned the stock with vinegar and the action with acetone. came out squeaky clean, just to some time. I just put my third coat of release agent on and tomorrow gonna do it again. This time I'm putting clay in the bolt holes and let the bolts push the clay out, hopefully. I talked to my smith today(picked up parts for the 1100) he also suggested to do it in 2 parts, fill the voids the 2nd part. I got a hole lot of info from here and books, just gotta filter through and see what works best for me. I'll post tomorrow and let you know how things go. Don't be intemidated from my mishap, from what I understand everyone has a horror story, hope its the last.

[Mr Bill]

Good luck and I'll be looking forward to hearing how yours turns out. When I scrape together the money for the kit and the miscellaneous I'll start on mine.
What did you use to route out the stock? What are you using for release agent? Which rifle model are you bedding? Geesh, I'm just full of questions.
Bill

[LaDano]

Bill I just used the release agent that came with the acraglass gel with a little extra paste wax on the bolts. 1/4" chisel and a dremel tool, hogged out complete.

[LaDano]

MrBill just popped out the action looks great, I cleaned everything up and added some paste wax then bolted it back down. Take heed to Gunnut I pretty much followed his advice to a tee, his advice has coached me the hole way. To Gunnut I appreciate all the help and wisedom you've given me.

[Mr Bill]

Great!! :grin:
Is there another thread here in the archives where you and Gunnut69 have more correspondence on this subject?

I'm still curious, which action are you working with? Are you going to leave the barrel free floated or have you considered the pressure pad on the forearm?

Bill

[LaDano]

Rem mod 700, I left the barrell free floated. I believe this is the only one but try doing a search. Aren't you doing a 700 also, if so don't be discouraged just take alot of time and plenty of release agent, like gunnut said regular paste wax works great. I'm gonna wait till weds. to stripe the old finish off, then it takes me about 10 days for the new finish to be complete. It is a old stock with a nice pressed in checkering pattern that I'm gonna recut by hand. Maybe by the end of march or start of april I'll know how acruate it came out. Also check out (www.varminthunters.com/tech/pillar.html) has some pics to go with directions. Hope it helps

[Mr Bill]

Thanks for the link. Pictures always help.

I plan on bedding a Ruger 77RL. From what I've read Rugers are more challenging because the forward receiver screw is angled. I've also found that for this type of ultra light it can be beneficial to reinforce the forearm with an aluminum tube or as one person used HO train track rails. It's to keep the forearm from twisting resulting in variances from the barrel pressure pad. With it's whippy, pencil thin barrel it's going to need the pad.

I've been advised to try my first bedding attempt on a rifle of lesser value and considered trying it on an old Savage 340. Still haven't made up my mind but, I think it's going to be the Ruger first 'cause I can always get another stock for it, where as, I just recently saw a post where someone is trying to find a 340 replacement stock and can't locate one.

From the sounds of it your rifle is going to turn out better than it was when factory new. I can imagine your a little anxious to see the results from the bedding on paper, tight groups.  Checkering sounds like fun. Do you have a stock vice/cradle?

If this bedding exercise goes well for me I'll probably bed my other rifles too; Browning A-Bolts, Rem 700, Savage 340's and a couple 22lr's. My goal is to accurize/tune them all. I've finally gotten all their triggers tuned to a crisp 3#, well except for a pre-64 Win 70 but it's trigger is very smooth. Because of the 70's originality and condition I don't think I'll be doing any mods to it.

Take care and I'll be looking forward to hearing how yours groups.

[LaDano]

Mr Bill from what I've read the ruger will be tougher but, just excercise alot of patience. As for the HO railroad track I'd try to find something for rigid. I'm a conductor for Union Pacific RR with a 12car HO display in the kids room. (Just thought of what I used) don't use the flex track use the track that slids together if that is the route you go. The flex track is pretty flexable name explains it. As far as my (dads) project, next is the trigger set at 3#. I already ordered all the goodies from brownells for the recheckering, building my own cradle now. I tryied to talk my father into a new stock but he's had this one for years. It has a real nice stamped patteren I haven't seen before, with a ebony tip. Probably gonna swap out the old redfield scope for burris. Just a little surprise for him. Good luck Dan.

[gunnut69]

LaDano-- glad it came out OK..  pun intended.... and thanks a lot for the praise..    I really started using the cast pillars to help with the M77 Rugers, old models..  and the round bottom actions.  Much eaasier than making an aluminum tube to fit the barrel contures correctly.  I have cut many pressed checkering patterns.  It takes some time but usually works pretty good.  I'm in the process of writing an article for 'the American Gunsmith' which contains the process as part of the refinish/refurbish article.  It is best to refinish first but do try to aviod getting more finish than neccessary in the checkering.. If you'd like I can post my tecknique..

MrBill-- The Ruger's angled lug is a pain and the reason for the cast in place pillars(though they are not my idea, but don't remember where they came from).  I have used stiffeners cast into the forearm..  Don't know if it helped or not but the rifle is very stable from year to year...  I used aluminum rods but if I were to do it over I would use aluminum (or carbon) arrow shafts.  Plug the ends, bundle them and hold them down in the inletting...  The shafts are very stiff and the air would lighten them considerably..  Might be a method of stiffening up some of the cheaper synthetic stocks also..  Key would be getting the shafts evenly spaced in the epoxy matrix.  Damaged shafts are readily available from archers.  they will be bent but the bend can usually be cut around, only need a few inches.  Try your local archery pro-shop.  I use a cradle now and it's a really handy thing to have but my first ten years or so I chechered and recut checkering with the work in my hand, one end on the vice on my bench the other on my thigh.  My left hand controled the radial attitude of the stock while the right handled the cutter..  The Cradle is a major improvement..  BTW I made my cradle..it's not all that hard..  goodluck from the gunnut69

[Mr Bill]

Dan, I don't recall off hand where I had read that article about the HO RR tracks but, I recall the guy said he used three rails and described their alignment. I'd bet I have a copy of it in my folder. I copied another article about a smith installing an aluminum tube, don't recall off hand whether it was cylindrical or square tube, into the forearm of a Remington Mtn Rifle to achieve greater stiffness.  This later approach with the aluminum tube is the one I'm been giving greater consideration. The article describes routing out a channel from in front of the lug cavity forward to beneath the pressure pad. This whole operation is going to be a major exercise for this novice. It's got me a little intimidated, resulting in all my questions on a variety of forums and researching articles on the subject. It's good to hear from someone like yourself who is also trying it for the first time. It helps build my confidence.

There's nothing like a crisp 2.5-3.0# trigger. I love the instant release without the creep. I find I can hold on target better while applying pressure to the trigger.

Although I'm confident your checkering will turn out well, good luck with it anyway. Do you have a way of posting a photo when it's finished? I plan on creating a photo file as I progress through it for posterity sake.

Gunnut, I've been thinking about the cast in place pillars and the more I think about it the more I like it. Isn't the contraction/expansion ratio of epoxy less than that of aluminum? If it is, then the cast pillars are more stable than the aluminum.

It's quite the coincidence you mentioned carbon arrow shafts. I was wondering where I could find carbon fiber tubing to use, instead of Aluminum, to keep the weight minimized. Thanks for the answer. As for spacers, wouldn't those little spacers they use for tile floors and walls work? The little ones with three leggs. This stock is pretty narrow, wonder if three will fit.

You mentioned sealing the tube ends, I'm wondering if by doing that here at nearly sea level, will create greater stiffness when I take the rifle to 8-10000 feet elevation. Sure hope it doesn't start making noises from air leakage. Thanks again for the idea of the arrow shafts, I'll check at the archery range and see if there are any discards there.
Bill

[LaDano]

Gunnut, I would really appreciate any advice or idea that pops in head on the checkering. I've been practiceing on old stocks in my lap, got to finish the cradle. I have already picked up Monty Kenedys checkering and carving gun stocks lots of info. I fugure its like any thing else repetions makes the eye hand thing work. Mr.Bill as far as pics go I just bought a new digital camcorder with the picture thing, haven't figured it out yet just got it weds.  for my new son being delivered this coming fri. Don't believe I'll get much done while I'm on vaction the next three weeks.(feed&clean) if you know what I mean. Ha Ha any way try going to your local hobby shop that sells remote control airplanes they will have any size or shape carbon fiber tube that you might want, if not they can order it. Flew and built airplanes for several years till the divorce.(BI%CH) got my shop. By the way Gunnut brownells is backordered on the pounce wheel got any suggestions were I can get it. Gota get some sleep now I'll check this tonight Dan.

[gunnut69]

LaDano - are you refering to the pounce wheel used to transfer checkering patterns to the wood?  I no longer use them..but they can sometimes be found at sewing shops.  They use them to transfer quilt patterns I think..  That is also an excellant source for white lead pencils, lots easier to see on walnut..  To transfer tight curved patterns I use a very narrow xacto knife blade and punch thru keeping the blade following the lines.  You can make really tight turns, such as behind a fluer de lis by punching lighter and it's easy to create a corner to delineate where 2 ribbons cross.  Only thing I've found that is fine enough to not leave a mark when using extremely high line count checkering.  After punching in the pattern just connect the dashes with your xacto or single line cutter.
A tip on cutting pressed checkering..especially the remington style reversed impressed patterns-- What you really have are tiny square holes.  If you start cutting the walls between with a checkering tool you will loose you reference for the crossing cuts.  Start by using an xacto knife with a rounded edged blade.  Cut through all the webs dividing the little holes and cut both ways.  Use the round edged blade to 'roll' through the wood (makes a straight line lots easier).  The cuts in the little dividing walls will be your checkering guides.  Use a Dembart file type single line cutter and make all the cuts in a single direction before making any crossing cuts.  Only cut these initial cuts deep enough to mark the next cuts and to not be erased by the crossing cuts.  Use the Dembart 'S-1' pull type cutter (or a similar type) to bring the lines exactly up to the borders(cuts on the pull=no runovers).  I lightly mark the borders of the pattern with the checkering tools just enough to clean them up for later.  After the pattern is cut out the last cut is around the circumference to clean up the tiny nicks left by the pull cutter..  You may find cracks in the edges of these pressed patterns(caused by the pressure and heat used to create them), these can most times be removed with a curved flat carving chisel.. sometimes they can't.  In those cases I carefully fill them with thinned and dyed epoxy, applied with a sharply pointed toothpick..sand flush and refinish...
And congrats on the new addition.  My youngest is 16, the oldest just turned 21.  Both love hunting and are great partners in the woods...  The oldest has yet to miss her first deer and loves her custom 280.  The youngest has missed deer, perhaps he's learned even more than his sister.  His rifle will be forthcoming.  A custom mauser manlicher in 6.5 Swedish..  has all the goodies..  Just a little advice from an OLD father..they grow really fast, enjoy them as much as possible.. and love them forever!!  good luck from the gunnut69

[chk]

For stability in a fore-end check out the Feb,03 issue of Guns & Ammo. There's an article on using old fishing rods to prevent warpage. Old fishing rods, Acraglas , and fiberglass cloth are used after hogging out the fore-end. BTW Brownell's has metal pillars for Ruger 77's.

[LaDano]

Thanx alot there Gunnut I'll use the wisdom. Most of the books I have gotten have a small chapter about checkering, with that and Montey Kennedy's book its a lot to learn. Have you heard anything about the video brownels carry, kinda wondering if the dollars are worth it. It is a 2 hr tape so it might be. My parents are coming weds. with my 10 year old son(loves to camp and hunt we just don't do it enough) so hes gonna check out my work so far. Any way gonna take em to the gunshop and meet the guys doing some of his work just wish it was his money(ha ha) I don't mind it's like giving him something back for all hes taught me over the years. I have already completely reworked and remington 552 for him a couple months ago, you might remember me talking to you then. well got to spend that quality time with the boss. Thanx Dan