Frame stretch....???

[Flatlander.54]

Ive seen this affliction mentioned a couple times but never seen any details to go along with it. Could someone shed some light on this for me a little? Is this caused by shooting the heavy thumper rounds or is it a problem associated with, say.....pistol rounds also? Is it pretty much the end of life for a frame that has this condition, or can it be repaired? Thanks for any info.

[KN]

That will pretty much trash a frame, but it takes a lot to strech one. None of the standard callibers are enough to do it unless loaded way beyond safe levels. It's usually the big custom jobs that do it. People trying to get more out of a contender than designed for.  KN

[Graycg]

Check out this link, might prove helpful:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/FAQ/max_pressures.htm

My Opinion only,
 Graycg

[HBL]

It can happen any time you shoot cartridges designed for rifles, ie. 300 savage, 7-08, etc. These were made to perform at higher pressures than the contender frame is designed for. Thus lower charges being required to lower the pressure.

However, sometimes, a faster burning powder can attain the same velocities with lower pressures which are suitable for the contender.

Example, I use H322 in my 300 savage. Using CCI 350 mag primers and 130 gr. Hornady bullets. I chronographed these loads at 2500 fps +/-, with very little pressure signs. Cases extract easily, primers don't crater and I get a full powder burn.

Basically, any large bore, designed for more than 43,000 in pressure, from what I have been told, will stretch the frame. And I may not take as long as you would think. :-)

[thomas]

HBL?? I have read many articles stating that you can strech your frame BEFORE you see signs of pressure like blown primer pockets and such.
Just wondering do you have equipment to test pressure in your reloads?
I think even "GB" has posted that tell tale pressure signs are NOT a good way to accept what is safe in reloading.
Just wondering what you are basing your SAFE pressure readings on.

Tom

[HBL]

When loading for the 300 savage, I use CCI 350 magnum primers. Pistol primers are designed to function at lower pressures than rifle primers. I went over all of this with Bellm, after he made the barrel for me.

Watching these primers will give you a good idea when top pressures are being approached. I believe, when approaching the top limits, the mag primers will start to crater. At this point I back off the load by 1 grain. This keeps the pressures within acceptable levels for shooting the larger dia. cartridges.

I have loaded my savage using the 350 primers and then used the same load using large rifle primers. The large rifle primers looked like they had not even started to deform at all. Where the 350 primers began to flatten.

I have been told and it has shown to be true to this point, that the pistol primers were made to operate at pressures around 43-45000. This would indicate that these primers are softer than those designed for rifle cartridges.

I use the 350 mag primers for the 300 savage, and the 375 JDJ. Even though watching primers is not the best way to guage pressures, using the pistol primers is easier to watch since their designed pressures are very close to what the contender frame will withstand without stretching.

Smaller cartridges such as the 223, 6mm-223, 22 hornet and brass of the same diameter, there is very little worry about frame stretch. You will blow primers and ruin your brass before the frame will ever get hurt.

Bellm has the best explanation for using the mag pistol primers.

[thomas]

I wonder if that would be a good way to check pressure with the 30-30 case rounds? Is beelum a good sorce for real info?
I have heard both sides and stayed away from his ideas because so many dont trust him.
tom

[HBL]

I have never had a problem following anything Mike had told me in the past regarding the best ways to get the most out of the Contender. He is very safety minded and will not lead you on a bad path.

I don't know what went on here and don't care to know. I get a lot of good info from GB and his moderators along with everyone else, and I also get a lot of good info. from Bellm.

I use what I feel I need to, to improve my shooting conditions.

I don't care to get in to personal issues, but I will not avoid free information and guidance when it is given.

Bellm had good ideas and solutions, and truely belives in what he does.

Matter of fact, all but one of my contender barrels were custom made by Mike in the 1980's. I wouldn't trade any of them for anything made by another. They are very accurate and quality, IMO is second to none.

Just my opinion, not intended to start any off topic discussion.

 :grin:  HBL

thomas,

didn't  mean to get off tract, but one thing when using the CCI 350 mag primers with 300 savage, 30-30 and other like cases, is that I went, after a suggestion was made, to using H322.  This powder works great in the savage and the 375JDJ.

[jeff b. HHI 7241]

You have a P.M.
Jeff

[Graybeard]

HBL the information you received regarding the pistol magnum primers reardless of source is PURE UNADULTRATED BUNK. Sorry to be so blunt but I refuse to allow unsafe practices to be touted on here without challenging them when I see them.

The large or for that matter small are designed to function at pressure levels far in excess of what you can safely use a .300 Savage or any other case with such a large case head in a Contender. That case head is limited to around low to mid 40,000 range for safety and long frame life.

This pressure level will not flatten the primers. The LPM primers are actually likely a tad stronger or harder than the SPM primers. The LPM primers are intended to be used at mid 40s and at that level should show no signs from the pressure. Folks who've done actually scientific pressure testing and compared to such signs of pressure as primer status, case head expansion, sticky extraction and such have totally debunked these as useable. They are a joke. But one that can get you killed or maimed.

You do as you please. You are free to blow up your guns if ya like. Heck I've done it myself, a TC Contender in .44 mag. and that's why I am so picky about this stuff. I've been there and done that.

I really am getting a tad tired of folks dragging out the rantings of a west coast fellow who claims to know all yet still puts out info regularly which the rest of the world long ago figured out wasn't truthful. I am convinced some of what is spouted in his name whether of his saying or not is gonna gset someone hurt. From now on let's leave him out of conversations here.

GB

[thomas]

I was worried about using this information.
His website sounds so inviting and truthful, but as some have stated the info in stated website can be dangerous as I have understood from some.
I would rather be safe than sorry.
Seems so many have gotten HOOKED on his rechambers and then found they shoot no better than before.
tom

[HBL]

GB,

Agreed.

Again, I was not attempting to stir the pot.

I apologize if it offended anyone., and I did not take offense to your comments or warnings.

I appreciate this site and value the info shared by yourself and others.

Good Shooting,

HBL

[Graycg]

I guess occassionally someone on this post ought to send a list of forbidden topics, names that are persona non-grata, and a list of of what characters represent the names of the persona non-grata such as ***** so that new guys don't open any festering wounds that lead to ranting and raving that would hinder the intellectual exchange of information and ideas that I thought this post was all about.  Sorry if using a name or an idea offended anyone, I didn't know the local political correctness embraced so strongly on this post.  I thought an armed society was a polite society.


Dissapointedly,
 Graycg

[Graybeard]

Graycg That is a subject I've been trying to ignore. Really I have. BUT lately it seems someone is trying to see how far I'd push. Guess they've found out.

Dang near anything having to do with TC Handguns is fine on this forum. BUT the ONE thing for sure NOT OK is advertising for a person who was kicked off of this site and who's full six months banner fee was refunded with only 60 days left in that six months. Of late many posts have appeared to me to be blantant advertisements for him and nothing more. That is what prompted the action I took which I had hoped would not be necessary.

I'm not pointing fingers or accusing anyone individual of the above acts and maybe it wasn't even intended that way but just came across that way to me.

It does bother me tho to see that site tossed out for every question that comes up as if he is the see all, know all, end all of TC information. Ain't so.  Most others in the industry to include those who do the same work are strongly in disagreement with much of what he states as fact. I am one of those who disagree with much of it. Some I fully agree with. Some I partially agree with. Some I feel is gonna get someone hurt if it hasn't already.

As I stated and have stated several times. I had a TC factory .44 Mag barrel blow up in my hands. NOT FUN. I was using a book load but in a S&W case that for some strange reason had a capacity much less than other headstamp cases. In those days I used range pick up brass and paid no attention to mixed headstamps. Twice I emptied that case and put the charnge back in because it didn't "LOOK" right but in the end because it was a BOOK load I capped it with a bullet and fired it taking apart the barrel in the process. What was the pressure it took? Haven't a clue but it was a book load and not an over charge or mischarged case. I carefully weighted it that last time before finally deciding to load the case even tho it obviously was more full than the others.

So how much more than a book load in a .44 mag can a TC barrel take? I haven't a clue. How much more in other cases? I haven't a clue. Truth is nither does that other individual. JD Jones has a clue. He has intentionally destroyed a bunch of barrels and frames to get that clue. That's why I use his data with total confidence and worry about data from some other sources. That's why I so often make comments regarding what I feel is an overly hot load that folks say show no pressure signs. I love JD's response to that. He says if the bullet came out the barrel that's a pretty good sign of pressure.

There just is NO way short of pressure testing to know what pressure your load in your barrel is generating. TCs are strong guns but they will come apart. I know. I've done it. I'm just trying to help keep the rest of you from having the experience I did.

HBL Thanks. No hard feelings on my part either. These days I'm really trying hard to stay out of the day to day running of the site and letting the moderators do it. Many forums I don't ever even open unless they contact me with a problem. Since I do have an interest in what is discussed here I do open the forum each day but don't read all posts or threads. But I do read many. As hard as I try to not take an active role in posting here I do from time to time.


GB

[Graycg]

Thank  you sir,
  You clearly are a gentleman and I think I understand  at least part of the issue.  I'm not a stooge for anyone, and not advertising for anyone.  Just a new guy on the post who has been playing with a passel of contender barrels and two frames since 1982 and still don't understand  why they often act the way they do.  If someone has a better more informative website, please let me know.  I think Highly of JD Jones, but his website isn't overflowing with contender info, nor are several others.  If JD Jones has a book on that info you stated or it's covered in a website, I'd love to see it.
    I'll now bow out of this issue and try to continue learning what makes contenders safer, straighter shooting and harder hitting.

I appreciate your clarification, sorry if I opened any old wounds, not my intent.

Graycg

[Flatlander.54]

:shock: I think I'll stick with factory chamberings and loads...I used to hand load strictly for accuracy improvement in a few cartridges and usually stayed under or at the book data on all of them. All these specialty rounds and chamberings are just too confusing for me.

When i originally started this thread I surely didnt mean to get any kind of mess started about who said what, whos right/wrong, sorry for the mess.