Scholarly Debate: Winchester 88 vs. Savage 99?

[Big Paulie]

Hey Guys,

   I have been looking at and reading about both of these rifles.  I am thinking about getting one in .308 Winchester.  But I just can't decide between the two.  The people in each camp seem to have given them cult status, swearing that each is absolutely the finest lever action ever made.

   From my viewpoint, the Savage is a nice classic looking rifle, , but dang is it heavy!  Even the "featherweights" are heavy.  And all of them feel "butt-heavy."  If someone is going to carry a rifle as heavy as the Savage 99, there are alot more rifles to consider.

   As for the Model 88, at least in the pre-64 versions, they are interesting and good looking rifles.  With that diamond cut checkering, they seem to grow on you.  They also look really good with a scope (compared to every other lever gun I have ever seen.)   On the down side, I have heard (i) that in .308 or greater, they kick like HECK, and (ii) the trigger is "a mess" or "the worse" or "horrible", but "good enough for hunting" and "something you can get use to."

    I would really appreciate some real world, practical comparisons of the benefits and burdens of these two rifles (not just trading the "my cult rifle is better than yours" talk, which I can read anywhere).  I would particularly like to hear from people who have carried them in the hunting fields.   (I have always found that if I shoot a rifle at the bench, I may think it is great, but after dragging it around on 4 or 5 hunts, I may end up hating it!)

   As for me, I am looking for a handy carbine, with maybe a 20 or 21 inch barrel, to use in deep woods and for small fields, up to 100 yards or so.  The 24 inch barrels don't really interest me.   I would probably put a 2x scope on it.  (My eyes are just too old to use the peeps anymore.)

   All information is appreciated.  

   Best Regards,
   Big Paulie

[leverfan]

Big Paulie-

The first rifle I ever shot or hunted with was a Model 88 in 308 Winchester.  The kick is not bad at all, unless you're shooting 180 grain bullets from prone.  That 88 has never worn a recoil pad, as soft rubber pads were known by unkind names back when I started shooting, so I handled the recoil with the hard butt plate.  The rifle is really my dad's, and he didn't bother with slings or scopes when I was a kid.  While the 88 does not pack in the hand as easily as the 94, it was easy enough for a 12 year old kid to haul around.  The gun now wears a 3-9x Nikon, and my dad still relies on it for his hunting rifle.  I haven't talked him into a sling yet.  The 88 is from the first year of production, and the fit and finish are excellent, and the checkering is cut, unlike later models.

It groups very well, despite the trigger.  Maybe I just didn't know what a "good" trigger was, but it's never caused problems for me.  Keeping the trigger group clean helps a lot.  It's no bench rest trigger, and never will be, but it just never caused me any trouble.  My grandfather had an 88 in 284 Winchester, and it was his favorite hunting rifle.  

My uncle has a very old Savage 99 in 303 Savage.  It's a better looking gun than the 88, at least to my eye.  My brother in law also has at least one or two 99s floating around, and he seems happy with them.  One of the 99s has been cropped about as much as a rifle legally can be, and it packs pretty light.  

There are a lot of left handed people in my family, so there are a lot of leverguns floating around.  I grew up shooting the 88 and 94 Winchesters, so those ended up being my favorites.  If my dad had kept a 99 around, it might be my favorite "modernized" lever gun, but I just have to pick the 88.  My advice would be, to find good samples of both, heft them to your shoulder, maybe shoot a few examples of each, if you can.  

My first deer fell to the 88, I prefer the action of the 88, so that will always be my first pick.  It's really one of those win-win choices, they're both good rifles.

[clodbuster]

Big Paulie  My pick is the Savage for sure.  It is reliable to the max. and having hunted with them I don't concur on the heavy part.  My .308 is an E model with a 1.5 to 4 scope with 20 inch barrel and yes it does buck but for that reason you'll need one in 250 Savage or 243 to practice with.  I just gave you a reason to buy another gun!  Mine will shoot 1.5-2 in. groups with cheap Remington ammo and is a pleasure to hunt with.  Couldn't want a better carry gun.  I've heard tales of lame triggers on the 88 Winnie and frequent trips to the doctor for repairs.  Dont overlook the 300 Savage cartridge since so many guns were chambered in it they are more available as is ammo.  It hits nearly as hard as the 308.  Deer never notice the diff.

[tscott]

Oh my goodness.... My 1955 99f featherweight is the most balanced deer rifle I have carried, particularly with the scope off. I have a 1.5 x 4.5 Leupold on it. Pull the scope off when still hunting.
My 94 is great with great memories, but FOR ME... nothing compares to the 99f in .300... They still got a couple at the local gun store.....
cherrys.com. After 45 years of shooting deer... most recent last Thursday,
all my otherd deer rifles stay in the cabinet. I just can't hunt with anything other than the 99... You know you can't go wrong with either rifle..
I also feel the 99 is more accurate, and in .300 or .308, obviously has more knock down power... Good luck!

[NYH1]

I have a pre '64 Winchester model 88 in 308 Win. My father bought it brand new in 1962. He almost bought a Savage model 99 in 300 Savage. I'm glad he got the Winchester. I don't care to much for the Savage 99's, not that their not a "great rifle" because they are. I just think their ugly :shock: ! My Winchester shoots under an inch at 100 yards with Remington's 150 gr. Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt ammo. I have a Tasco 3-9x40mm scope on it now, I'm going to replace it with a Leupold VX-II 3-9x40mm. The trigger on my gun isn't that bad at all. The recoil isn't bad either. I also shoot a 280 Rem., a 444 Mar. and a 12 gauge with slugs, so the 308 Win. is a real pleasure to shoot compared to some of the other "deer" rifles/guns I have.

My fathers friend shot a moose with it and I've shot two deer with it. The first deer I shot was about a 75 yard shot, I hit it in the shoulder and the deer dropped like you turned off a light switch, really it was that fast! The second one I shot was about 45 yards or so, I hit him in the heart/lung area and he ran about 40 yards or so. I could have put a baseball in the exit wound! I totally destroyed both the heart and the lungs. I couldn't believe he ran at all!

I don't know about the Savage but the Winchester model 88 has a rotating bolt. When you close the action, the bolt gos in and the end turns locking it kind of like a bolt action. Try to shoot both if you can and go from there. I highly recommend the Winchester, just my opinion! :grin:

[Ron T.]

The Model 99 Savage is in the midst of becoming a true American icon.

I use a 1953 Savage Model 99 (a late model “EG”) in .300 Savage for all my deer hunting and I don't think either the rifle or the caliber can be beat for deer out to 250 yards.

The .300 Savage cartridge, using 180 grain bullets, is easily capable of taking elk, moose and black bear at reasonable ranges (under 200 yards) while the use of 120 grain to 130 grain premium bullets turn the efficient .300 Savage into a great antelope rifle for long range shooting.  The 150 grain bullet is an excellent choice for deer.

The Model 99 Savage rifle is a "classic" and handles like a dream.  Its lever action is "butter-smooth" compared to most other lever action rifles.

The .300 Savage, "father" of the .308 Winchester cartridge, is acknowledged by many experts as "THE" perfect deer cartridge because most hunting bullets offer outstanding performance at .300 Savage velocities while averaging 25%-30% less recoil than a .270 Winchester with equal weight bullets.

My hunting handload, consisting of a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullet in front of 41.5 grains of IMR4895 rifle powder and a standard Winchester large rifle primer, chronographs at an average muzzle velocity of 2680 fps while giving an average of  ¾ of an inch, 3-shot groups @ 100 yards off the bench rest with my Bushnell 3x-9x variable scope set on "9x".  It fired a 3-shot group of .112 inches @ 50 yards off a bench rest using sandbags and a rifle rest.  I’ve seen many other Model 99 owners claim ¾ inch accuracy at 100 yards from their Savage Model 99’s as well and I have no reason to doubt them.  The Savage Model 99 is undoubtedly one of the, if not “THE”, most accurate lever action rifle available anywhere.

Sighted in 2.75-inches high at 100 yards, the .300 Savage cartridge has a point blank range of 265 yards, meaning the bullet does not rise or fall more than 3 inches above or below the "line-of-sight" from the rifle's muzzle to 265 yards down-range which is a long shot for most hunters.

There's something to be said about hunting with a "classic" rifle in a "classic" caliber... and the Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage caliber offers its owner a reasonably light, fast-handling, truly "classic", but very useful rifle for all occasions in a very reasonable price range.

If you’d like more information about the Model 99 Savage, get THE “authority”, Doug Murray’s book, “THE NINETY-NINE”.  Murray’s book is a wealth of information.  He will personalize and sign your copy of his book if you request it.  Here’s the order information.  Delivery takes about 10 days to 2 weeks:
 
Doug Murray
20 Polo Lane
Westbury, NY 11590

The cost is $30.00 post paid, Canada add $3.00.


Strength & Honor…

Ron T.

[CEJ1895]

I like the trim lines of the Win 88 and the smooth feel of the lever and trigger on the Savage 99 but the rifle that felt best to me was the old Sako Finnwolf. It just felt right in my hands but I was young and dumb back then and thought that lever guns were "old fashioned". Wish I had picked one up then... Don't really know how the Finnwolf stacked up against the others but it looked good to me... CEJ...

[Doc T]

My 88 is the only "long range" rifle that I have.  By that I mean something capable of a 300yd shot.  All my other rifles are 30-30, 44mag, muzzleloader class.  Mine is a post-64 that originally was a .243Win.  I wanted something with a little more bullet weight.  I found a local gunsmith who re-barreled it for me.  It now has a 23" blackened stainless Douglas barrel with no sights in 7mm-08 and has a Nikon 3x9 on it.  It will stay under 3" at 186yds with Hornady light magnum ammo  (186yds is the longest shot available off the bench at my deer lease).  Now I am thinking about getting another one and having it done in .260Rem.

[jbmi]

Here they are side-by-side.
The 88 is a 308 and it does kick worse than my 338mag. I think it has to do with the design of the stock, to much drop in the heel along with a hard plastic butt plate. It's a shooter  once you get use to the trigger. This one is a safe queen.
 I have another 88 that I had rebored to a 338-08 and fitted with a new Fajen stock with 1" recoil pad and 1.5-6X Leupold. It's a dream to shoot, with very little felt recoil and is one of my regular deer rifles.
The 99 is in 358win. and wears a Leupold 3-9X compact, it's about my favorite gun, easy to carry and easy to shoot. I like them both but if required to keep only one, I'd have to take the 99.

[Will_C]

jbmi, What a great picture of some great rifles. I'm jealous
Will

[while99]

Paul, I've owned six model 99 Savages and three model 88 Winchesters.  The 99s were in .300 Savage and .358 Winchester.  The first .358 I bought was very accurate and the 99F in .300 Savage was also.  I never cared for the triggers on the 99 nor the sharp comb on the early guns which tends to bite your cheek.  Also, the two-piece stock is not supposed to be conducive to the best accuracy.  But all of them were good-looking, well-made rifles which functioned reliably and were accurate enough for deer hunting out to 250 yards or so.  
The 88s were in .284 Winchester and .308 Winchester.  The 88s are also good looking, well-made rifles.  I never cared for the triggers on the 88 either.  I've been spoiled rotten by the good triggers on my bolt-action rifles.  Supposedly the one-piece stock on the 88s helps accuracy.  Out of these nine rifles, the only one I have left is a pre-64 88 in .308 Win.
If I had to choose a repeating, non-bolt-action rifle for my deer hunting, I'd get a Remington 760 or 7600.

[leverfan]

The 88 is a 308 and it does kick worse than my 338mag. I think it has to do with the design of the stock, to much drop in the heel along with a hard plastic butt plate.

What kind of 338 mag do you have that kicks less than an 88 in 308 Winchester?  I want one!  Like I said in an earlier post, I started hunting with a very early 88 back when I was twelve, and I took my first deer with it, and beheaded a couple of grouse.  Recoil was never an issue for me with that rifle, which is still in exactly the same condition as when it left the factory.  

The only 338 I've shot is a Browning A-bolt, which maybe didn't fit me too well, but the recoil was in a completely different class from the 88 in 308.  I can bench that 88 all day, and my shoulder feels fine, no flinch.  The 338 stopped being fun after about half a box.

Any shooter/hunter picking a new gun should probably tune us all out, and just go pick the rifle that feels best to him, which is the best way to choose, anyway.  After all, we're being asked for opinions on two very good rifles, so it's a win-win, regardless of final choice.   Big Paulie, if you pick a pre-64 88, and it doesn't seem to be what you wanted, I might be persuaded to take it off your hands for you.  After all, if I'm going to root for the 88, I may as well back my recomendations up.

[Loozinit]

I'm kinda mystified by the weight statement concerning the Savage.  Seems to me that my 99 is about the most balanced levergun I've ever shot - but then, I'm about 240 pounds and have fairly long arms.  One thing I'm not is a scholar, so I can't say anything about the 88 except I've read that it was a well built rifle.  However, I can say plenty about the .308 in the "kick" department - it does.  That's one reason I love the .300 Savage so much.  Even with 180 grn bullets it doesn't fight back as much as the .308 but kills just as well.

[jbmi]

My comment about the recoil on my factory 308 88 is based on experience shooting it off the bench and in the field.
The 88 shooting 165gr. bullets off the bench requires me to place my gun case over my shoulder, it's down right uncomfortable.
My 338mag is a Model 70 in a custom McMillan stock that I had made with an LOP of 14.5" and includes a 1" pad.  This is a custom fit stock that's very comfortable to shoot off the bench or in the  field.  The recoil on the 338 is more like a strong push vs. the 308 which feels like a sharp rap. I'm sure the hard plastic butt plate doesn't help much either.
I don't feel I'm recoil sensitive because all my other rifles don't bother me like the 88 and my other 88 fitted with a nice Fajen stock feels much better, besides I'll shoot about 3000 rounds of trap from my 12ga over the summer.
The 88's are great guns and if I didn't want to keep this one factory original I'd put a pad on it and enjoy much more.

[Uncle Ji]

My vote goes to Choice #3 Browning BLR, which IMHO is better looking than either the Savage 99, or Win. 88, the BLR in 308 having the traditional straight grip butt stock, and exposed hammer, and slab side receiver, but also having the modern flush box magazine, rotary bolt, aluminum receiver, and acceptable safety design in comparison.  MY 2 cents.    :grin:  :-D  

[mogwai]

I have owned and shot good examples of both guns but prefer the Savage 99 for 2 reasons.

1.  Savage has a top tang safety while Win 88 has safety in front of the trigger.
2.  Savage has a shorter length of pull and thus handles better for quick shots.

[bgjohn]

I had a M88 Winchester in 243 caliber. I sold it and bought a bolt gun. Need I say more?
JM

[Lawdog]

Go with the Savage M99, especially if it is one with the rotary magazine.  Don’t like detachable magazines.  Lawdog
 

[pastorp]

I must agree that the BLR in 308 would be perfect for what you want. I have owned all three and the BLR is my choice. Length, balance, exposed hammer, look and handle good with a scope, good trigger at least in the 5 I have owned. The model 88 handled better to me than the 99 I now have. But both have a 22 inch barrel. The BLR has a 20 inch barrel and is better balanced to me with a scope. Regards, Byron

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

Thanks for all of the spectacular responses.  They were exactly what I needed.   After reading them all, and going to a gunshop, and also going to a gunshow this weekend, here is where I am.


     1.   I think that both the Savage 99  and the Win. 88 are both going to be harsh kickers with plastic or steel buttplates.  Therefore, no matter what I choose, I am getting the best recoil pad that money can buy and having it installed.

    2.    I handled a pre-64 Model 88, and it is a beautiful rifle.  Also, it was very nicely balanced.  But, I have this personal "thing."  I can't stand the feel of a rifle that has a square bottom forestock  (such as the Ruger M-77).  When I hold a rifle like this, I feel like I've got an elementary school chair in my hand, and I keep shifting the rifle different ways to make it feel better in my hand.  I can never seem to just settle down with it.    This is probably not an issue to people with big hands.   I love the feel of a round forestock, with checkering on each side.   As beautiful as the Model 88 is, it does have somewhat of a square bottomed forestock, and because of my personal quirk, I think it would drive me crazy.  ( I get that same bad feeling when I hold a Remington 760 pump.)

    3.  It is interesting that several people have told me that they think the Model 88 is prone to breaking down.  However, I reviewed the entire 24 pages of the Gunsmithing messages from last year.  Guess what. Not a single one regarded a Model 88 malfunction, and probably 8 or 10 regarded malfunctions in the Savage 99s.  Of course, this isn't a scientific analysis, but it makes me think the Model 88 is pretty reliable.  I also think that the true break-down culpret is the semi-auto Model 100 Winchester, and that somehow, the bad reputation of the semi has spilled over on the lever action.

   4.   I went and handled several Browning BLRs.  My research indicates that these are extremely good and very reliable rifles.  They almost have a cult following.  But, they are so thin and slab-sided, and so tall in their design, that when I am holding one, I feel like I am holding a pine one-by-six trim board.  Again, I know that this is purely a personal thing, and that the modern BLR is probably a better built rifle than the 99 or 88.  It probably relates to the length of my arms, the size of my hands etc.
   

     5.  I have found through this process that I really like a straight-grip stock on a lever action.  It helps to make it much quicker and comfortable in my hands.   Since I want a .308, and I don't like the feel of the BLR, this pushes me by default to the Savage 99.

    6.   I handled several 99s, and there are so many styles and models that the way they feel depends totally on the particular model you are holding.  I found a beautiful Savage 99G pre-war, that seemed to leap to my hands.  It was in great condition, with original steel buttplate and original untapped receiver, and in 300 Savage.   Although the 300 Savage round would probably be fine for me, I know that my rifle must have a recoil pad and that it must have a scope.  So, I couldn't bring myself to buy that rifle, knowing that I would end up cutting the stock and drilling/tapping the receiver.  It would have ruined the collector value of a fine rifle.   (The guy was asking $650 for it.)

    7.    I hate to give up on the model 88, but I think that at this point, I am steering towards a post war Savage 99A, with straight grip and schnabel forearm, in .308.   I think that they weigh just at 7 pounds, which is a half pound lighter than most of the 99s.  I know that it will kick, but I think that a real expensive recoil pad, and maybe adding just a little extra weight in the forearm, will help.   (If anyone disagrees, please let me know!)

     8.  Can someone answer a 99 question for me please?  Does the post war 99A have a real walnut stock, and does it come with zero checkering, or maybe cut checkering?   I can't stand hardwood stocks or impressed checkering.

     9.  In my original post, I said that many of the Savage 99s felt heavy.  One gentleman responded that he never considered them heavy at all, but that he weighed over 200 pounds and had long arms.   As many shooters will tell you, the world is a much different place when you are 5 foot eight and only weigh 145 pounds!  [Sure that trim 30 inch waiste gets you more dates, . . . . but rife recoil can be murder.    ]

     Thanks to everyone,

    Big Paulie

[STW]

Didn't know any 99 came with a straight grip. Do you have a .jpg or a link?

[Big Paulie]

STW,

   I believe all of the pre-war and post war 99A models are straight grip.  Savage also produced a 99 "carbine" in the 1970s or 80s, that was also straight grip.  I don't have any links or pics.  I am just looking in my old copies of Shooters Bible.

[tscott]

I would find a mid 50's 99f in .300 sav. The recoil should not be a problem. I think one should expect to pay 250 - 500. I use 180 coreloks.
What a fabulous all around deer setup. Detachable rings make it the most balanced deer rifle I have carried...

[jh45gun]

I sure would not pass up a 88 if I got one cheap enough but my issue is parts? Seems to me my gunsmith said parts are hard to get for some of these. Then there is the trigger issue that cannot be fixed you live with it. If I had my choice I would take the Savage.

[Loozinit]

Hey Big Pauly!
You are right about the waistline getting more dates.  When I had those dimensions I also had more dates - in fact, I married the last one and there went the waistline!   Good luck with your choice of rifle.  Personally, I have gotten away from .308's and 30-06's specifically because of recoil and arthritic collar bones and shoulders.   I find the .300 Savage to be about perfect for what I do.  I know what you mean about not wanting to chop up a fine rifle, but you have to do what it takes..

[44 Man]

I have to agree with Big Pauly about square bottom stocks just not feeling 'right'.  I think the Ruger lever with it's square bottom stock just feels clunky.  I am a lever action man (also never liked the feel of a bolt action) and I love short barrels.  I have never been hesitant about cutting a long barrel down to help a gun balance well.  I owned a Savage 99 in .308 about 30 years ago.  Someone had added a recoil pad without shortening the stock, resulting in much too long a pull for me so that rifle never felt good.  Last month a friend showed me a Savage 99 (1939 mfg) in .300 savage.  When I picked it up and put it to my shoulder, I was in love.  I have not held a gun that fit and balanced so well in years, even though this gun has a 24" bbl.  It has a scope installed so I don't have to worry about drilling and tapping a collectable.  This gun is a shooter and has a permanent home now.  I have $400 into it.  I do disagree about shooting the 180s for deer.  The 150 gr bullet are perfect.  Save the 180's for moose.  Now if I can just find one in .358!  44 Man

[Lagavulin]

Jbmi - Can you please tell me what calibre your 338-08 was before the reboring?
I have a 99 in 243 that i was thinking of reboring to 7mm-08 or maybe 358 (dont reload so 338-08 is out) but am concrened if there is enough 'meat' on the barrel. Did the barrels vary in diameter that much from 243 - 358 in the stock versions?

Thanks!  

[royw]

I have had both win.88 and savage 99, both .308.  my only compaint was the lever on win. 88 lacked enough levage when removing fired case. I now have 2 savage 99s and no win. 88.

[jbmi]

Lagavulin,
My 338-08 started life as a 308. It had enough barrel thickness that the few thousands of an inch increase was not a problem.  I liked it becasue it kept all the original barrel marking. The smith who did it did a nice job of stamping 338X  right above the 308.
I would think it would be easy to rebore a 243 upto a 7mm. you're only talking .041 difference, that's only a little more than the .030 that I needed between my 308 and 338.
Here's a picture of my 338.

[crow_feather]

You don't see many 338's with a lever on them.

C F