Author Topic: Rem. 700 LSS Mtn. Rifle .260 Rem. WITH A PROBLEM (Read 1482 times)

Graybeard · « **on:** September 29, 2004, 01:09:05 PM »

OK guys in fairness, I've praised Remington loudly for the excellent guns I've gotten, so now I have one that isn't. So it's only fair I share this with you also.

I bought this rifle used with expectations something wasn't gonna be right with it. Why? Well my dealer told me the guy bought it, kept it a week or so and traded it back on another rifle. Yup, red lights went off but it was just the kinda project I wanted to take on so I bought it.

Visual observations:

1. Barrel is not properly centered in stock. Gap on one side and not on the other. Suspected a bedding problem when I saw this.

2. It came to me with a generic windage adjustable base that wasn't screwed down very tightly. I hoped this was the main reason for the rifle's return. I replaced it with a Weaver type base/Burris Signature Rings combination.

3. Barrel cleaned up completely with very little effort. Appears to be a nice smooth barrel that isn't going to copper foul badly.

Shooting Results:

1. First time out I fired one shot at 25 yards. Bullet impacted about 10" or more high. Since it wears a brand new Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9 Firefly scope that came optically centered I figured it was best to use the Burris Signature offset inserts to cure this.

2. Today I was back after using the offset inserts. Firs shot at 25 yards was pretty close so I made some adjustments to bring it to near center left to right and a bit low at 25 yards and moved to 100 yards.

3. Begin firing groups at 100 yards. Uh oh. Shot like my now long gone Ruger #1B, in other words all over the paper. Two different loads were tossing bullets several inches apart. Definetely a bedding problem I'm saying at this time.

So there you have it. GB has a Remington that isn't perfect from the factory. Well I didn't buy it new so I can't say with 100% certainty that it wasn't right from them but I think it wasn't. I've not yet gotten back to it and it won't be a priority item for me so may take awhile with it.

I'll first remove stock from action, check for obvious bedding flaws and decide the best course of action. I'll try to determine if stock is warped or inletted improperly or if barrel is offset to one side or what. I'll inspect the inletting thoroughly for defects and/or tampering since it left the factory. I'll inspect the barrel inside carefully and crown to see if this might show any obvious problems. If all appears OK with metal I'll begin working with the stock.

Most likely I'll glass bed the action and first couple inches of barrel. Unless it seems I need to do otherwise I'll leave the factory pressure point intact. I'll then give it another whirl and let ya know when I get around to shooting it again. This may or may not be soon depending on how everything else goes. I have a lot of projects going and hunting season is on me soon.

But thought I'd let all you Remington "haters" know that after 250+ Remington rifles I now have my second with serious issues. But remember I didn't buy it new so I cannot say yet what the issues are or if they are from the factory or if the previous owner caused them. At this point tho I suspect it is from the factory issues.

Questor · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2004, 01:27:23 PM »

Is it because Remington has begun hiring people away from Ruger?

Buffalogun · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2004, 01:38:50 PM »

GB,

With a record like that, I'd just plain quit using them!!! I wouldn't buy another one!!! :lol:

With it shooting all over the paper, it sorta, kinda points at something being loose. But, maybe you got a bad barrel(harmonically speaking).
(But then again, a harmonica has nothing to do with it!!!) :eek:

Buffalogun

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2004, 01:39:57 PM »

Wal just dang Rudy, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe so. :-D

Dave in WV · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2004, 01:45:23 PM »

Bill, a friend of mine had a model 7 that had a "bedding problem". The recoil lug is a washer as I'm sure you know and it was off center. He traded it off but knew he could have sent it back. It was a .308 and he didn't like the recoil so he traded it off. He did shim under the chamber area and got good accuracy when the recoil lug wasn't hitting the bottom of the stock. Just a thought. Dave

Zachary · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2004, 04:26:32 PM »

Although virtually all of my Remington 700s shoot MOA out of the box, I would suspect that, with a little work, the rifle should start shooting much better. It's amazing what a proper bedding job can do. Hopefully it will work out for you.

So 250 good and 1 not so good - that wouldn't prevent me from buying another Remington.

Zachary

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2004, 06:32:41 PM »

I think I have isolated the problem. Tonight while watching "The Mountain" on TV I took off the scope and pulled stock. A close examination showed the barrel channel has been cut off center in the stock. Looking down the barrel from the shooter's perspective; there if far more wood on right than left side. This coincides with a gap on the left side of barrel but hard contact on right side. Very uneven contact!

So the proper fix is a new stock.

I'll call Remington tomorrow and see what they say. Recall now I bought this rifle USED not new. But it is a factory defect and is obviously the reason the first owner returned it within a week to 10 days of buying it.

Everything else looks really good. The barrel is really nice and smooth and cleans up quickly.

Remington is under no legal obligation to do anything to it as I'm not the original purchaser. Should be a really good test of the Customer Service so many on here have said they don't have. If they fix it for free I think it might be time for some to reconsider Remington's Customer Service. If they don't I do understand but I will try to convince them it is in the best interest of all concerned if they do.

If they don't then I have some decisions to make. I could:

1. Dump it back to the dealer I got it from like the last owner did. I'd rather not.

2. I could remove wood on the right side of barrel channel to free float it except for the pressure point and then glass bed the action and a couple inches of barrel and maybe bring it up on each side of the pressure point to aid in keeping barrel centered.

3. I could buy a new stock.

4. I could find someone to replace the barrel with one of heavier contour and have them rework the barrel channel when adding the new barrel. This would make a nice .358 Win. I'm thinking. Might even find a gunsmith or company who'd do it in return for a banner for some appropriate length of time so I'm out no cash.

First we'll give Remington a chance to prove they are the kind of outfit I've been telling you they are. Personally I think they'll make it right at no cost to me. Will let ya know what they say after I call tomorrow.

jvs · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2004, 10:57:14 PM »

Even if Remington had the best quality control program in the world, which they don't, a defect will get through on occasion. The idea is to strive for a perfect production record and get as close as you can.

Obviously one got through that should not have met specs on a final visual inspection. I suspect Remington will replace the stock for a defect that is not from after sale shananigans. Hopefully they will send you a stock and request you to return the defect in the same box the new one comes in.

It's hard for me to believe they would put the screws to a guy who has a website with thousands of rifle buying visitors.

tscott · « **Reply #8 on:** September 30, 2004, 01:35:51 AM »

I think you're on the right track. I'd go with a synthetic stock, and perhaps a dremel where needed. I had a Vanguard that would behave the same as yours... I checked the scope for movement, wouldn't budge.
In frustration I took the scope completely off... The rear screw in the rear
base was slightly loose. I had to really put pressure on the base to see the movement. Thus the explanation, why I couldn't budge the whole scope arrangement. The force of shooting had a minute effect on POI.
Tightened everything back down.. no loc tight... Gun is terrific now.
1. Barrel channel
2. quality scope
3. gorilla tight bases and rings

Good Luck!

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2004, 03:31:17 AM »

Quote

I'd go with a synthetic stock

No way! I hate plastic stocks. The laminated stock on it is the reason I bought it. I LOVE laminated wood stocks. Like the gray ones best but a "real hunting gun" to me is one with SS metal and a laminated stock.

The Remington LSS Mtn. Rifle is to me the exact picture of what I want in a hunting rifle.

tscott · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2004, 04:00:46 AM »

Beautiful! I'd keep the dremel in mind just in case for touch up on your laminate. Incidentally I have the same rifle. Bought it when the model came out.... The best accuracy out of the box hunting rifle I have shot.
In those days they had a pretty nice piece of wood. I went with the
most attractive stock my gun shop had. So I "settled" for .243, not my favorite deer round... Well maybe It's the small caliber, but I can clover leaf all day at 100yds. No walking, and I would have expected this with a light barrel / rifle. You'll figure this bad boy out.
Me, I gotta have plastic. I whack the crap out of everything hunting!

tominboise · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2004, 04:20:13 AM »

GB. FWIW, I bought a new Winchester M70 featherweight a couple of years ago, that had the same condition. As soon as I pulled it from the box I knew it had an issue with riding the stock on one side. I bit the bullet and rebedded the rifle before I ever shot it, as I didn't feel like wasting the ammo to see it shoot shotgun patterns. BTW, it is chambered in 6.5X55. Maybe the rifle companies have a hard time with .264 caliber barrels and bedding!

BTW, it shoots fine now, into an inch or less (3 shot groups) with loads it likes....

Graybeard · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2004, 04:33:58 AM »

Quote

Beautiful! I'd keep the dremel in mind just in case for touch up on your laminate.

Don't worry I will. I too bought one of the first Mtn. Rifles. Mine a .270 Win. with a beautiful piece of walnut for a stock. I wanted a .280 Rem. but the shop was going out of business and wouldn't order me one. So from the selection they had in stock all of which were .270s and .30-06s I chose a .270. I've kicked myself many times for letting that one go. I still look for it on the dealer's shelves when I'm there hoping one day someone will trade it back in.

I also had one of the limited edition ADL Mtn. Rifles with SS metal and plastic stock. It too is chambered to .270 Win. I gave it to my oldest son one year as a Christmas present. He borrowed it every year when season started and returned it when season ended. Every white tail he has taken has been shot with that rifle. So I just gave it to him.

I have two other LSS Mtn. Rifles. They are a .30-06 and a 7-08. Super shooters. I figure eventually I'll end up with the fourth selection they make another .270 Win. Some day I'll walk in and see one just as I did this .260 and take it home with me.

I'll be calling Remington in just a few minutes to see what they will do.

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** September 30, 2004, 04:53:27 AM »

Just spoke with a really sweet lady named Jessica in Customer Service at Remington. I explained the entire deal to her just as I did here with no mention of GBO.

She took the serial number and told me to box up the stock only and send it back for replacement at no cost.

Only after being told that did I mention GBO and this thread. Told her I had a couple of naysayers on here who are really down on Remington and what they perceive as a lack of Customer Service. But that I keep arguing with them.

So once again it seems Remington stands fully ready to back up their products when I have a problem. It sure has happened seldom but this is what I've come to expect from them when it does.

Reminds me of a time long ago when I bought a Bell & Carlson stock for the Model 7 that is now my wife's. Gad what a piece of junk that B&C stock was. Anyway it was so fat it required a longer screw to attach it to the metal. I had a local guy cut it and weld in a piece to make it long enough to work. When I tired of that bulbous piece of crap stock I needed a shorter factory length screw to put the factory stock back on. I called Remington and explained what had happened and they shipped not one but two new screws to me at no charge.

Guys Remington really does care about their customers and darn seldom do I ever need the customer service department's help but when I do they've never yet failed me.

jvs · « **Reply #14 on:** September 30, 2004, 11:18:53 AM »

I'm glad it worked out for you.

I believe the key to this whole thing is the serial number. With todays quality standards I am almost positive Remington knows when there is a quality issue in a manufacturing run. The question that remains is why would Remington wait for a call to correct a manufacturing flaw.

With a ISO 9000 program in effect it wouldn't have happened for a regular customer, unless the customer (ie distributor) knowingly okayed accepting defective units at a lower price. Selling to the public does not qualify for ISO 9000, hence it is buyer beware, not only for Remington but all firearm makers. As a customer of Remington you can request that any rifle you buy is ISO certified. If it was up to me there would be a big movement from websites like this to nudge firearms manufacturers into offering ISO certified weapons to the public. They already pay for the certification, why not use it.

There may not have been any shananigans after the sale of this rifle when it was new but there surely was before it got to the dealer.

I only bring this up because Remington is the topic. Remington has alot fewer defective units than some others. I hesitate to name the brands, but there are much worse problems out there.

Graybeard · « **Reply #15 on:** September 30, 2004, 12:51:05 PM »

Quality Assurance was my career. I am ISO 9000 Trained.

There is no such thing as an individual product that is ISO 9000 certified. What is certified is the PROCESS, not the product.

BTW certified processes have far less NOT more inspection.

jvs · « **Reply #16 on:** September 30, 2004, 01:47:19 PM »

So far we agree but if a product meets tolerances then flaws are caught before shipping. Not only does the person who drills a hole make sure the tolerances are met but the person who puts a bolt in the hole is required to also.
Then you should also have the "supposed" final inspection of all parts together. ISO in most places is a continuous inspection process of a product with closely held tolerances, or it doesn't get shipped. As you know.

Firearms and Distributors can be a funny thing sometimes. One can slip through but odds are it wasn't a slip. You know as well as I that sometimes the Sales Dept overrules the rest of the show.

fishfrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 30, 2004, 04:44:23 PM »

Greybeard you mentioned you would disassemble the gun and look for obvious bedding or inletting flaws. What specifically would you be looking for other than the barrel channel? The reason I ask is because I have a similar problem I suspect and want to know what to look for. Thanks

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** October 11, 2004, 11:48:14 AM »

OK for all you naysayers of Remington's Customer Service I got the brand new replacement stock today. Less than two weeks from the date I shipped it the UPS truck brought the replacement.

When I called I told the lady it was not purchased new by me and she said ship it to them anyway. I did and got the replacement with no questions asked. As stated below I only mentioned this thread and this site after she agreed to replace the stock for me. In no way did that figure into the matter.

This is exactly the kind of Customer Service I've gotten from Remington every single time I've ever needed it which because of the excellent quality of Remington products has been darned seldom.

Now I just need to put it back together and see if this fixed the problem.

subfan · « **Reply #19 on:** October 17, 2004, 10:59:02 AM »

Any update??? I just got one of these and have not shot it yet? How was the replacement wood?

Greybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** October 17, 2004, 01:47:25 PM »

Replacement wood is fine. Very well inletted.

Rifle has made great improvement but still I think the action needs to be bedded for best accuracy. I'm now getting groups of three with two touching or near touching but a third always not with with. Groups vary from about 1.5" or so up to over 3" but always with two really close and one wide.

I'll likely shelf this project until next year and then bed the action and first couple inches of barrel in glass.

jvs · « **Reply #21 on:** October 17, 2004, 10:41:10 PM »

GB,

Remington acted in a way that I suspected they would. I suppose they sometimes get calls from people who like to tinker with their products and call Customer Service when they screw them up. With an obvious quality defect, they should have and will bend over backwards to make it right.

I have a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight from back in the 80's that acted like that when I first got it. The same story with just about every hunting rifle I have, except the Remingtons. They never took as much tinkering for some reason. They may have never shot tight but they rarely took a large amount of work to make it so.

Free-floating, glass Bedding and lightening the trigger did the job. Do away with the factory 7 lb+ trigger pull and things will be just fine.

I just got done doing my squirrel gun. A .22 that went a little wild sometimes. Now it can take out a 1/4 inch dot inside a 1 inch circle at 25 yds.

I can now shoot the gonads off a fly, one at a time, with that one.

Graybeard · « **Reply #22 on:** October 18, 2004, 03:24:09 AM »

I was also confident they would replace the stock. As stated I was pretty sure something was wrong when I bought it since it was returned so suddenly after it was bought by the original owner. But knowing Remington stands behind their product in the event something was done wrong by them I felt confident in buying it. They now have stood behind it and made right their mistake. It is an error it would seem should have been caught but is also one that could easily slip by also.

I think it is now doing not so different than many mass produced items are going to perform. In no case are these various mass produced rifles specifically bedded stock to metal. The entire idea of mass production is to make stocks and actions close enough to exactly the same for any stock and any action to mate together and work well.

But I can glass bed the action and first couple inches of barrel and make them fit to perfection. So could Remington have. But it is gonna take me 3-4 hours likely and might have taken them nearly as long. For them to have done it would have run up the cost of the gun considerably. Since two of three shots are generally within 1/2" or less of each other the barrel is a shooter. There is just a wee tiny problem in the fit of barrel and action to stock now. Very possible just bedding the recoil lug would fix it. But while I'm doing it I think it best to bed the entire action. I will also most likely lower the trigger pull to around 3 pounds while doing the action bedding job.

I think this is going to prove to be a very good shooting rifle with just a wee bit of "custom" work that factories just can't afford on $500 rifles.

riddleofsteel · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2004, 03:14:42 PM »

Most of the wandering flyers in Remingtons I have encountered were from poor recoil lug contact or poor rear tang bedding. Either case will cause the recoil to be transfered to the bedding screws instead of the recoil lug.
I had one 700 that had poor rear tang contact that you could actually slip a piece of paper under it. The action was actually rocking against the recoil lug making vertical strings 2 to 3 inches long.
A gunsmith that does some work for me often drills out the bedding screw channels and fills them with bedding compound. This, in effect, beds the rear tang and the forward screw. Combined with a bedded recoil lug you get a completely suspended action and the pillars of bedding material do not compress like wood or plastic does.