Author Topic: sniper rifles (Read 1744 times)

GoneHunting · « **on:** September 27, 2004, 04:38:28 AM »

I am looking a purchasing a new rifle. I was looking along the lines of varmint or sniper style rifles. Something accurate in an all around caliber that will perform well from 100 to 1000 yards. I was looking at the tikka t3 line of guns and also the remington 700 and 40x rifles. I was trying to keep cost down so the 40x rifles were a little more than I wanted to spend. I also plan on getting a reloading outfit, so I will want a round with good reloading potential and that offers a good factory ammo selection. I want to stay with short action rounds. Information would be greatly appreciated.

In God I Trust!

PA-Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2004, 04:58:11 AM »

Varmint at 1000 yards is going to be difficult. 22-250 or 240 Weatherby maybe. Larger game 7mm08 308 30-06. Savage makes some good package guns for $500.00 with scopes. Mayber one of the newer short magnums.

GoneHunting · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2004, 05:13:14 AM »

PA-Joe
I'm not really looking for a gun to shoot just varmints with. The gun will be mostly used for big game and target shooting. I was considering the 308win. or the 7-08. The 308 offers better factory choices. I want a gun that will be accurate that I wouldn't be scared to enter compititions with. I was thinking about a custom rem. 700. Or a Tikka t3 Varmint stainless.

In God I Trust!

7magWoodsman · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2004, 06:10:41 AM »

I recommend a 26" 1/9.5" twist SS Fluted Wiseman 7mm Remington Magnum barrel attached to a reworked Ruger M77 action set down in a McMillan full-bedded stock all under top notch optics.........I know it is not a SA but I recommend from experience.

huntin1 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2004, 11:36:21 AM »

I would suggest looking at a Savage 10FP in .308, mine shoots less than 1/2" at 100 yards. Below is a link to the 10FP-LE2B which comes from the factory with a Mcmillan stock, the accutrigger adjusts from 1.5 to 6 pounds and breaks crisp and clean. If you know someone with an FFL you can get one for around $700. Top it with good glass and it will do everything you've outlined. JMHO.

http://www.savagearms.com/10fple2b.htm

huntin1

Lawdog · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2004, 12:03:01 PM »

GoneHunting,

You'll be ahead of the game and have money left over by going with the Savage 10FP as "huntin1" stated. Lawdog

safetysheriff · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2004, 12:36:34 PM »

If you want a big-game and a target rifle you are actually heading in different directions, in my opinion! One would require a 26" barrel at least (I'd say) to propel a bullet to 1000 yds' while maintaining sonic' velocity.....because accuracy goes out the door when the bullet drops down to sub-sonic velocity. Meanwhile, the weight of such an accurate 1000 yd' rifle ( and the quality of its 16 power scope, etc.) would be 'too much' to carry in a hunting rifle in most instances.

Sure, I'd shoot a benchrest rifle over a sendero/beanfield down in Texas or elsewhere. Otherwise I'd look for a 22 to 24" barrel on a 7 to 7 1/2 lb rifle with a reasonably-priced 2.5 to 10 power hunting scope. It would go with me whether walking or using a pack mule. It would handle quickly, unlike a target rifle......because game animals don't sit still and wait for the shot, as you know.

I'd get a dedicated, inexpensive (?) Ruger 77MKII or Remington Model 700 at Wal Mart to hunt with; and go to a dealer to buy a Model 700 varmint for a rifle to adapt to target shooting.

See www.long-range.com for further ideas from the "pro's".

Good luck.

SS'

dbuck · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2004, 02:12:21 PM »

I second huntin1 and lawdog, go with a Savage 10FP in 308. I have one with accurtrigger and it shoot .500 at 100 yards and .750 at 200 yards and that me shooting prone and not off the bench.

If you are on a tight budge look at a Sightron II with mildot 4X16 with target knobs for less then 300.00 I have one on my Savage an I love mine, but I also have a Leopold Mark 4 with M1 knobs and that will set you back around a 1000.00, but Midway USA has a sell on them now for 639.00 I believe thats why I got mine.

If you get this rig e-mail me and I will give you a good load to start out on that I believe you can't go wrong with.

dbuck

GoneHunting · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2004, 01:47:17 PM »

What do you guys think about the 7mm-08 for a long range caliber? I looked at the Savage but I like the looks of the Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless. I hope to get one in 7mm-08 if y'all think it is a good choice. I'm trying to stay with the short action calibers. I thought about the 270wsm but I think I want to stay with something that is time proven. I also looked at the 308win but wind gives it a fit out past 500yards. The only problem with the 7-08 in the Tikka is that I will have to find a dealer that can order it for me. I questioned Beretta and they said that they will be available in Feb. Thats about the time I was planning on making a purchase. I'm going to do some research between now and then and decide on which caliber to go with. I hope you guys can give me some suggestions. Thanks.

In God I Trust!

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #9 on:** September 28, 2004, 02:13:46 PM »

I have,and use a MIA match barrelled with a 6x camed scope for 168gr match.

stork · « **Reply #10 on:** September 28, 2004, 02:45:26 PM »

I would also agree that a Savage would be the most cost effective way to get what you want and still have something that will do what you want. I would recomend a .260 or a .308. There is much more information on the .308. Both will be fairly cheap to reload. Your factory ammo selection is better with the .308, but one you start relaoding that won't matter much.

huntin1 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 28, 2004, 04:35:03 PM »

Quote from: safetysheriff

If you want a big-game and a target rifle you are actually heading in different directions, in my opinion! One would require a 26" barrel at least (I'd say) to propel a bullet to 1000 yds' while maintaining sonic' velocity.....

I gotta disagree here, the load I just worked up for my Savage 10FP is 45.5gr Varget, Fed GM 210 primer and 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. I crono'ed this round and got an average of 2696 fps, using the Point Blank calculator I show 1262 fps at 1000 yards, well above the sub-sonic threshold. Granted I have yet to test it at 1000, however I did shoot a 4" group with it at 600 yards this morning. I think it needs more work before I take it to 1000.

Oh, the rifle, Savage 10FP .308 24" barrel Bell & Carlson Duramaxx stock aluminum pillar bedded, action bedded to stock with Accraglass. Farrell 20MOA base, Tactical Precision rings and Sightron 4x16x42AO scope. Not sure of the weight, but this is my primary hunting rifle. I realize that this type of rifle is not for everyone, but it works for me.

:toast:

huntin1

safetysheriff · « **Reply #12 on:** September 29, 2004, 01:18:52 AM »

Quote from: huntin1

Quote from: safetysheriff
If you want a big-game and a target rifle you are actually heading in different directions, in my opinion! One would require a 26" barrel at least (I'd say) to propel a bullet to 1000 yds' while maintaining sonic' velocity.....

I gotta disagree here, the load I just worked up for my Savage 10FP is 45.5gr Varget, Fed GM 210 primer and 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. I crono'ed this round and got an average of 2696 fps, using the Point Blank calculator I show 1262 fps at 1000 yards, well above the sub-sonic threshold. Granted I have yet to test it at 1000, however I did shoot a 4" group with it at 600 yards this morning. I think it needs more work before I take it to 1000.

. Not sure of the weight, but this is my primary hunting rifle. I realize that this type of rifle is not for everyone, but it works for me.

:toast:

huntin1

I went to Camp Perry on Aug' 13th this year when the wind was right out of the North. Look at the scores they shot that day and you can see that windage was not a factor in their shooting -- everybody having a good day that day! How much did the gentle/moderate (?) wind in their face slow down their projectiles over 1000 yds' with a flight time just under 1.7 seconds, per the program I just checked. That program did not make corrections for wind speed coming directly at the shooter, nor for various velocities of the wind. The one I checked, the Lee Shooter, is not convincing that every 24" barrel can do it to 1000 yds. My program shows 1214 fps remaining velocity at 1000 yds and some/many barrels may be 'slower' than yours at that 24" length. Because your projectiles average 2696 some of them are obviously slower....and the big question could be, "how much?"

The competition at many of these matches across the country is rather keen!

What does that rifle weigh, and why carry a seemingly heavy rifle like that on a hunt is still my question?

Good luck with your 1000 yd endeavor.

SS'

ps: an alternative type of target shooting one might try with a hunting rifle would be metallic silhouette competition which goes to a max' of 500 yds, I believe. A good 7mm-08 gets one into that game rather well, using heavy bullets I suppose. I'd do a 'search' of the web and see what the competitors have to say about that idea.

longwinters · « **Reply #13 on:** September 29, 2004, 11:46:39 AM »

To me, for a hunting rifle, one that weights 10 pounds bare is a bit too heavy. I would go with the Tikka for an all around rifle. But if target is going to be your primary use with maybe a little hunting on the side then go with the Savage. I am a 7m-08 fan, but it will not do anything a 308 will not do except maybe have a pound less recoil. But there is something very aluring about the 7m-08.

Long

GoneHunting · « **Reply #14 on:** September 29, 2004, 02:48:46 PM »

Longwinters
So, do you think the Tikka t3 varmint stainless will be a good choice? It weighs 8lbs. without a scope so with a scope it should still be under ten if not it won't weigh much more than that. I've made up my mind to go with the 308win because it is tried and true. I hope to get a reloading outfit so I can achieve maximum accuracy.

Thanks for all the suggestion everone. More would be greatly appreciated.

In God I Trust!

savageT · « **Reply #15 on:** September 29, 2004, 03:16:22 PM »

GoneHunting,
You seem to be mindset on the Tikka T3......which a few people on this forum seem to be certain have long-throated chambers. Now, that's OK as far as Tikka is concerned and gets excellent accuracy. But, if you start reloading you will soon be dissatisfied with the long throated chamber, I believe. Go with the Savage m10 in .308 and if it doesn't live up to your expectations then peddle it and get the T3.
Jim

longwinters · « **Reply #16 on:** September 29, 2004, 04:38:03 PM »

Gonehunting,

I really like my Tikka Whitetail Hunter. It is not a T-3 though. Like I said, from what I have seen of the Savage, the rifle alone is 10 pounds. Savages have a good reputation, and though I do not care for their appearance, many people do. I think you would enjoy the Tikka in 308 especially if you want it primarily as a hunting rifle. It will also do well at the range. . . I doubt if any factory rifle will do better. And for a hunting rifle, even in 308, 8 pounds is good. Especially if you want to shoot some off of the bench the difference in recoil from a lite rifle will be dramatic. I have been around Tikka Whitetail Hunters for several years, and all have been great shooters and from the experiences of my friends and I the long throat syndrome is not something that we have found. . . not to say it cannot happen. But if your rifle shoots better than MOA I am not sure what more you can ask. If you can get your hands on both rifles it will give you a better idea of what you will like the best.

P.S In God I trust also.....

Long

GoneHunting · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2004, 03:27:19 PM »

Longwinters,

So, do you think the 308win is a good caliber for what I'm wanting to do or should I look at some others. The main concern with the 308 is the effects that wind has on it. I'm not sure which caliber to get so I would like some suggestions. I would like to stay with short action calibers. If you think I won't have much trouble with wind then I will go with the 308. I was also considering the 243. Info will be greatly appreciated.

In God I Trust!

huntin1 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 04, 2004, 03:19:37 PM »

safetysheriff,

The rifle weighs 12lbs as pictured. As for the load velocities, the low was 2680 fps, and the high was 2712 fps. I crono'ed 10 rounds and got an extreme spread of 32 fps. I am pretty anal about the way I reload.
I reran the load through Sierra Infinity, which does correct for head wind, figures listed here are at 1000 yrds using the av. vel. of 2696 fps.
Wind(mph)----Vel. (fps)
0----------------1255
10---------------1240
15---------------1233
20---------------1225
25---------------1218

The speed of sound can range from 1101fps @ 45 degrees F to 1150fps @ 90 degrees F. I won't know for sure how it performs at 1000 until I test it at range, but the point here is you can retain velocity at 1000 yrds with a .308 in a 24" barrel to stay above sub-sonic.

gonehunting:

If you are going to shoot at long range I would stay with the .308 or the 7mm-08, both will retain velocity and handle wind better than the .243.

The Tikka would be a good choice as well, if that is what you have your heart set on, I just happen to believe that the Savage would be a better choice. Of course that is JMHO. As I said before, whatever your choice, top it with the best glass you can afford. And, shoot it as often as you can.
Good luck!

huntin1

longwinters · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2004, 07:51:50 AM »

Gonehunting,

The 308 is a great all around caliber. I really don't think wind drift will effect a 30 cal bullet anymore than any other caliber . . . after all it is what our military snipers have used and still use. Ammo is common in many bullet figurations and is relatively less expensive than many other caliber bullets. I am a big fan of the 7m-08 even though ammo will not be as commonly found. Infact, one of my teenage sons shoots the Remington LSS rifle in 7m-08. But I reload so even if we could not find cartridges we are able to make em at home. It is a caliber that is getting very popular. The 243 is a great caliber . . . especially for target shooting etc... but it is not really a good all around caliber for hunting.. . limited to deer and smaller game (and you have to be quite selective in your shot angles ).

So, If you want to stay with a short action look up all the info you can on the 308 and 7m-08. Compare velocities etc... and decide where you want to spend the most time with the rifle. In the woods or off the bench. Then see if you can buy the ammo locally, for a decent price, and finally see what manufacturer carries what you would like. I would recommend though that you get at least a 22" barrel. 24" would actually be very nice but 22" at the least. Then you will get the most that each caliber can offer you.

Finally, if you can handle each rifle, heft it a bit and ask yourself if this is the weight you would want to carry in the woods etc... for a day with a scope and fully loaded... Put it up to your shoulder and see if it feels comfortable to you. Then you will have your answer. I would go with the Tikka mostly because of the weight difference. But you may feel differently. Enjoy the research and shopping. It is almost as much fun as buying the rifle

Long

handirifle · « **Reply #20 on:** October 05, 2004, 12:49:10 PM »

gonehunting
I just read an article (can't remember the magazine, but will post it later) about a guy testing the 6.5mm Grenwald (SP?) that was one of the considerations for a replacement for the 5.56 NATO for special forces troups. The 6.8 SPC won out, I believe.

He give some very detailed info on the short and long term ballistics and compared to the 308 and 5.56. Based on his article he quotes the drift less than the 308 in all cases from 600yds and beyond.

It also dropped less too, I believe. The 308 retaind a couple hundred pounds more energy at 1000yds but you'll either be just shooting paper or very small animals at that range anyway so energy is a moot point.

Where I'm going with this is it sounds like, with the right bullet, the 7-08 might be one of the better choices. Problem is finding a heavy barrel 7-08.

handirifle · « **Reply #21 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:49:49 PM »

As promised, it was the March/April issue of Rifle Shooter magazine. The cartridge is the 6.5mm Grendel!

Lolly · « **Reply #22 on:** October 06, 2004, 06:31:15 AM »

Gonehunting,

Long range target shooting, I use HS Precision Heavy Tactical Rifle in 300 Win Mag. Grouping @ 100 yards is 1/4 to 1/2 inch with Sierra 190gr HPBT and about 71-72 gr H4831SC. At 960 meters I am within a 3 to 5 inch diameter circle depending more on wind here. Scope is a Nightforce 5.5 -22 x56 which allows me to see that target @ 960m very clearly. Anyway whole rig weighs in about 13-14 lbs which allows very comfortable shooting of full power mag loads (mainly hunting here). Also, no muzzle break.

IF you are not foot slogging much, this rig is perfect for long range hunting provided you are quite confident of hitting your target vital zone at 400+ yards. I get between 1/2" to 1" @ 100 yards with most premium hunting bullets.

Lolly

GoneHunting · « **Reply #23 on:** October 06, 2004, 02:40:03 PM »

Lolly,
I thought about the 300win. mag because it is also used widely by snipers. I also thought about the 7mm. magnum. What is the recoil like on say a 10-12lb. gun in 300win mag. The only thing I don't like about the 300 is its long action. I didn't want the 300wsm because it doesn't have much choice for factory ammo. I'm pretty well set one the 308win. Suggestions on the 300win mag. would be greatly appreciated.

In God I Trust!

Lolly · « **Reply #24 on:** October 06, 2004, 03:39:29 PM »

Gonehunting,

Recoil tolerance is a very personal thing. I love PLINKING with hunting loads in 44 mag. ie 325 gr @ 1400 fps. I have built up a very high recoil tolerance for 44 mag. Lots of practice, no fear and I move with the revolver. Same thing with rifles. The rifle stock must fit you snugly and the recoil should be a felt hard shove instead of an impactful snap. Otherwise you will flinch and everything from there on is downhill. the 300 win mag in 10-12 lb rifle is a pussycat. You will have no trouble PROVIDED you build you tolerance correctly and don't get into any bad flinching habits. This is such for all calibers. But what is fine for me is quite unacceptible for others. I have not yet been able to handle more than about 10 rounds of full power 378 Weatherby Mag for I begin to hurt a little.

You should be ok. Give it a "shot"
Lollypop

GoneHunting · « **Reply #25 on:** October 10, 2004, 01:11:55 PM »

Lolly
I was in my hometown sporting goods store this yesterday. I saw a Tikka T3 in person for the first time. It was awsome. I also checked out the 270wsm. cartridge for the first time. It looks like an awsome bullet. What do you think of that cartridge. I talked to the man that owns that store and he said he could order me a T3 Varmint Stainless in the 270wsm. I've got to give it a try. Hope to get it ordered around the first of the year. Any thoughts on the 270wsm would be greatly appreciated.

In God I Trust!

Lolly · « **Reply #26 on:** October 11, 2004, 06:26:42 AM »

GoneHunting

I prefer larger diameter bullets than the 270, however it is a very good round for it's intended pupose. I use 223 rem and WSSM for varminting and my 30-06 and 300 win mag for larger stuff (that's the intention). Now that I have the 375H&H, - anything on the planet is within reach. (THis is the theory).

You should always remember that all calibers overlap each other significantly as to their capabilities and each has it's own "sweet spot" or ideal bullet type/weight/powder weight and target type. Some people use the win 30-30 to take brown bear quite happily and they don't even know what a group is! After many years of target shooting, building up huge scientific data bases of many different calibers, bullets/loads/groups and all that nonsense, it dawned upon me some time ago that too much time is wasted by trying to find that perfect caliber/bullet and grouping down to the bullet diameter for a particular intende purpose. My advice is that while your eyes and health are still in prime condition, pick a caliber that you can handle and that suits your needs at the time, buy a rifle and go and enjoy it. Become proficient with it , know it's strengths and weaknesses and you will be happy for many years. Don't fall into the trap of chasing the next bigger caliber, faster loads or the latest hot item to come out.

The 270 WSM will do fine for most hunting. Tikka is a good rifle. I am a great fan of Finnish rifles (Have two Sako's).

Enjoy

Lolly

GoneHunting · « **Reply #27 on:** October 14, 2004, 03:45:36 PM »

Lolly
I have a remington 700ADL in 270win. It was given to me by my grandfather so I don't want to tamper with it other than a trigger job and floating the barrel I have left it in stock condition. I know there isn't much gain with the 270wsm but I'm going to give it a shot. I'm also going to give the tikka a shot. Thanks for all the information.

In God We Trust!