The Amazing 308

[vernonp]

We all have our favorite calibers that we prefer for different reasons and that is as it should be. I think the choice of choosing a particular caliber is part of the fun in buying a new rifle. The fans of the 308 though can back up their claim that the 308 is the best caliber with facts that fans of most other calibers could not. I was looking through my Lymans reloading manual and started checking out some of the 30 caliber loadings. I began to compare 150 gr bullet loadings in the 308, 30-06 and 300 WSM. The results suprised me. I looked at the highest velocity in each load. The 308 was 50 gr of 748 with 43,200 CUP for 2996 FPS. The 30-06 was 53 gr of 4064 with 49,600 CUP at 3012 FPS. The 300 WSM was 70 gr of N160 with 62,800 CUP at 3247FPS. The velocity of the 308 and 30-06 was about the same. Consider the short action of the 308, lighter weight and less recoil, the 308 is obviously better with 150 gr bullets. The 300 WSM requires 40 % more powder and 45% more pressure to achieve 8.4% more velocity, or 251 FPS muzzle velocity. The 308 is truly amazing. I know when it comes to hunting larger game with longer heavier bullets the 30-06 and 300 WSM are better but for deer sized game I think the 308 is the clear winner. What are your thoughts.                                                            best

[Zachary]

Virtually everything that you said is true, particularly that the .308 can be very close to the performance of the .30-06 with handloads, yet do it in a short action cartridge.

In addition to what you said, it should also be pointed out that the .308 will not perform as well with the heavier bullets than the .30-06, especially over 180 grains.

Other than that, I can say that, some time ago, most competition shooters shot the .30-06, then people found out that the .308 was more accurate (generally speaking, and all else being equal.)

Most law enforcement and snipers use the .308 over the .30-06 (albeit that they now also use the .223, but that's another story).

Keep in mind, though, that when you load the .308 to it's full capacity, then while performance will be similar, so too will be the recoil.  I myself can't notice that much of a difference with either cartridge.

Zachary

[azshooter]

300 WSM with 180 Gr bullet and 77 Grains of accurate MagPro 3095 FPS
.308 with 180 Gr bullet and 46 Gr BLC 2706 fps.

30% more energy than .308 67% more powder.  Still I'll take the energy.

[Iowegan]

The military just doesn't decide on whim about which caliber is best for their use. Years of intense testing goes into the process. Things like barrel life, throat erosion, accuracy, ease of feeding, power level, recoil, and many more parameters are considered.  That's one of the reasons calibers like the 223 Rem, 308 Win, and 30-'06 Spfld are so popular.

When the 308 was under development, a more efficient and better feeding short action cartridge was sought. Many cartridges were considered but the 308 came out on top. It is now the standard NATO cartridge and has grown in popularity with target shooters and hunters.

Guns are tools and like my daddy said "use the right tool for the right job". A 308 is not the best "tool" for all hunting conditions but if I could only have one rifle, it would be a 308.

[azshooter]

The .308 has some good loads available- on the other hand - the WSM can be downloaded to .308 velocity, pressure and performance in the same short action.

Example
300 WSM - 150 GR Bullet H4895 51.0 2919 FPS 53,400 PSI which is about 42K CUP.

[Coyote Hunter]

The military just doesn't decide on whim about which caliber is best for their use. Years of intense testing goes into the process. Things like barrel life, throat erosion, accuracy, ease of feeding, power level, recoil, and many more parameters are considered.  That's one of the reasons calibers like the 223 Rem, 308 Win, and 30-'06 Spfld are so popular.
...

In the 1900's the Army chose the .30-03, modified it to the .30-06, then chose the the .308, then the .223.  They are currently working on the next in line, a 6.8mm (shades of the old 7x57 and 6.5x55!!!).  For handguns it was a .38, then a .45, then a 9mm, then certain groups returned to the .45.  Seems like they can't decide what works best!

That said, the .308 is a fine round, especially for deer-sized game where the range is moderate.  For larger game or more reach-out-and-touch, I'll take a .300WM or RUM.  

Just my opinion as someone who has yet to buy anything in the .308 caliber

[safetysheriff]

I was looking through my Lymans reloading manual and started checking out some of the 30 caliber loadings. I began to compare 150 gr bullet loadings in the 308, 30-06 and 300 WSM. The results suprised me. I looked at the highest velocity in each load. The 308 was 50 gr of 748 with 43,200 CUP for 2996 FPS. The 30-06 was 53 gr of 4064 with 49,600 CUP at 3012 FPS. The 300 WSM was 70 gr of N160 with 62,800 CUP at 3247FPS. The velocity of the 308 and 30-06 was about the same.    best

No 'slam' intended, but the .308 will not move a 150 gr' bullet to 2996fps at 43,200 cup using 50 gr' of Winchester 748.     The Winchester manual itself will confirm this.......where they put 48.5 gr's of 748 in Win' brass, using Win' priming, and then shoot it all out of a 24" barrel achieving 2865 fps at 48,000 cup.     Somewhere there is a misprint in the information being quoted.

Work up to any load using 50 grs' of Win-748 in a .308 cartridge; and remember that generally Winchester brass is on the lighter side when you check their recipe using their own components.    If you load Remington brass you'll have to stop short of 50 grs' in most instances because pressures will be extreme.

Good shooting.

[longwinters]

The 308 does nothing spectacular, but does many things well.  It seems to have the malady of being labeled as a caliber with not much umph, kind of the 06's little brother.  It has been around so long that it has become a somewhat "boring caliber".  No flash, no magic.  But it does what it should do and that is what we expect of it.  It is one of the American workhorses of calibers.

Long

[vernonp]

Safetysheriff-------I checked the loading data in the Lyman manual again to see if I had made a mistake, but I reported it correctly. It is surprising that the reloading manuals would vary so much. If it is a mistake in the Lyman manual it could be a serious one. I'm sure most everyone starts well below the listed maximum loads and works up, but maybe not everyone. -------Thank you for your input---vernonp

[safetysheriff]

vern'

i believe that you read the 43,000+ cup in the manual, but i believe lyman has a misprint.

i think winchester's pressure reading is more in line with reality.

that's why we cross-reference manuals before loading cartridges.

Hey, just for the fun of it, go to winchester's website and see if you can't get one of their newer ammunition / reloading booklets for free.    it'll take a few weeks and you'll have it in the mail.    i got my info' out of their components catalog which includes 'recipes' with velocities and pressures out of their components,  and safety tips, etc.  

take care.

[james]

Yep, Vern, you have my vote.  
The .308 has been to me what the .270 was to Jack O'Connor.   Growing up here in Arkansas most of my shots were closer than Jack's and I usally had plenty of tree limbs to shoot thru.  I used it for every thing from groundhogs to deer.  Later I used it out west for antelope and bear.  I guess you can say for forty years it is my favorite...but a cute little  7mm08 has been making some pretty good shots for me lately.
james

[Atomic Chicken]

Greetings!

I have personally owned 3 rifles chambered for .308 Win, and if I were to only have 1 rifle out of all possibilities, it would be a .308 Win. bolt action rifle with a fluted stainless heavy barrel.

The reasons?  The .308 Win. is inherently accurate, uses a short action, can use a HUGE variety of available .30 bullet styles, uses less powder than magnums or .30-06 variants for reloading, easily kills anything on this continent except grizzly, factory loads are available off the shelf in any town in any sporting goods store, recoil is fairly low, and whether you buy factory or handload your own; ammunition costs are among the lowest of any center-fire rifle cartridge.  Also, every major and most minor manufacturers of centerfire rifles offer a multitude of different types of rifles chambered for .308 Win - this is a cartridge that will likely NEVER go away or become obsolete.

I'm a big fan of the .308 Win. - although time will tell if the 7mm-08 will eventually prove to be the better round for all-around general purpose medium size game hunting.

Best wishes,
Bawko

[Mikey]

308:  Nope!  Been there and done that and didn't find it in any way spectacular at all.  Actually found it not preferable.  I do not care for the use of 150 grain 30 caliber bullets in hunting as I feel they destroy far too much meat.  I prefer the heavier bullets in the 180 gn or heavier flavor and from that perspective the 06 outshines the 308.  But, so does the 8x57mm as well as a number of other, older military rounds.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Mikey.

[Thunder38849]

I wonder what Gunny Sgt. Carlos Hathcock would have to say about the .308 caliber?   Most likely would say it has more than enough "umph" to make 1000 yards kills, in the right hands.

[Dragon31]

I shoot the .308 in several different guns.  This is what I have observed.

1.  Remington 700 VLS
2.  Savage 110 tactical
3.  Savage 99C
4.  M1

All are very accurate.

The Remington eats and shoots everything well.  48.5 grs of Win 748 and 150 gr bullets.  Work well on Deer as far as I care to shoot.  With a 26 inch barrel achieving 3000 ft per second is do able in this rifle.

Savage heavy barrel 110 tactical,  loves surplus 110 gr FMJ bullets and Winchester 748.  It is absolutely boring to shoot this load at 100 yards.  No recoil and with a 26 inch heavy barrel you can shoot all day.  Its shoots other bullets just as well.  It is an ugly gun that rides in my truck a lot and with 110 gr soft nose bullets turns coyotes inside out.

Savage 99C, this rifle can not tolerate the high pressure of over 46 gr of Winchester 748 and 150 gr bullet.  The bolt in the rifle does not rotate and extraction gets spotty if I forget and shoot rounds for my other guns in this rifle.  It still can push a 150 gr bullet over 2600 ft per second from the 22 inch barrel with some powders.  Accuracy (mostly because of the trigger) is under 2 inches at 100 yards

The springfield M1, This rifle has a lot of potential I just have not had the time to work out a load that I feel really comfortable with yet and I of course have to be aware of the gas operation of the action.

When I hunt the bean fields of the southeast I often go to the Remington .308 VLS and a 165 Boat tail which at long range seems to shoot just as flat with a little more weight.

[magnum308]

Just to add something of my experiences with the "Amazing 308Win", I have a Winchester pre 64 M70 featherweight (the rifle in which Winchester introduced the 308 to the world in 1952), mine is a early 60's manufacture. For those who don't know about the pre 64 fwts, they were real featherweights which weighed 6.5 lbs bare, had a 22" slender (fwt type) barrel, but then the 308 can quite easily handle a shorter barrel than 24" with very little reduction in MV.

I have had mine for 25 + years (orogonally imported it from the US) and it has shot a lot of game. Here in Australia we have different game to the US and the 308 in one rifle or another has been my standard pig (boar) hunting calibre. I had a Remington 742 carbine (20" barrel, I think)autoloader with a Leupold 1.5-5X20 on a Pachmyr swing mount and it made a very handy bush (favourite habbitat for pigs). But when the federal government banned  and bought back all the autoloader in the country I had to yield it up. Sine then the pre 64 has been my only 308.

I have been developing some loads using 150gr projectiles for an upcoming pib hunt into western Queensland (sort of like the Texas of Australia). Just recently, a week ago in fact, had a (rifle) range session using one powder/primer combinnation (that had shot well before) and two different 150gr projectiles, Winchester silvertips and Nosler solid base (HPBT). The Nosler shot brilliantly, by producing a .5" 3 shot group with the 1st and 3dr shoots effectively elongating the same hole. See target below:

    [/url]

Now I know the 308 win is inherently accurate but this rifle, now more than 40 years old with a featherweight barrel, doesn't normally shoot one hole (3 shot) groups though it's a respectable performer for a hunting rifle .75" has been the best on a very good day in the past. I expect it and me to shoot around the inch and I'm happy with that. But it's been a long time since either of us have shot a .5" group. And to add to the achievement, it was a bit windy out there that day thou I did try to pick a calm spot.

I didn't have a chronograph but sighted at 2" high @ 100 yds put it spot on @ 200 yards, by my guess work puts it at not far off 2,800 fps. A very respectable performer for pigs, goats, deer (up to and including a good red) and, at a pinch, the odd roo (head shot).

"The Amazing 308" I say, Amen!

Magnum 308

[bchannell]

I couldn't resist chiming in on this, as I too am a big .308 fan. I'm a big fan of a lot of calibers, but in my mind the .308 is one of the best. I have a brand new Ruger stainless 77 MKII that is now my primary .308 and it a dandy.

It can do this anytime I'm up to it. Don't believe all those nay sayers about the Ruger 77s either. If you want to see just a fraction of the ones I've got and how they shoot, go to
http://webpages.charter.net/bchannell and take a look.

[IntrepidWizard]

In 1940 when the Garand and Johnson were in contention it was argued--and in my veiw correctly so that the 300 Savage was a better Military rd,because of size,wt and almost equal ballistics,the 308 is a 40 year later result.I carried and used the MI in Korea,I have a MIA with the Leatherwood cammed 6X scope and it is consistently in 12"s at 1000 yds.

[dbuck]

In Nam, we were switching over to M-16's, but still had a few of our M-14's and one day we were in the field and had to remove this tree, well forget the 223, but wait a minute we have our M-14's, on goes automatic and next thing we know the tree is down, enough said.  Same patrol those three M-14's saved everone's bacon because of the Mattel-16's were malfuctioning big time and the only thing we had left was those M-14's in 308.  I will never ever put the bad mouth on a 308 cartridge and neither will any other Marine who has used them.  I still hunt with a 308 and won't hesitate to take it Elk hunting with me.  The 308 remains me of the 30-06 cartridge, it might not be the best in one area of hunting, but it just remains a good all around cartridge.

dbuck