Rifle, scope, and ammunition needs for treestand hunter

[7magWoodsman]

A 600 yard shot while sitting in a tree? Yeah right.  Your 257 Weatherby is not what I would consider a treestand rifle though it's high velocity would require tougher bullets than my 7x57 or 308.  On the other hand for Whitetails I will say they are both superior to the 257 Weatherby under the circumstances this deer is usually hunted.

I have made 400-500 yard shots from "good" homemade tree stands although the conditions were perfect(I have past up shots that were less than 200 yards due to the tree rocking excessively from extremely high winds) and also isn't ANY rifle you sit in a stand with and harvest deer efficiently with, a good tree stand rifle? I use a 7mag and have killed deer with one shot kills from 15-500+ yards and have never had a bullet "fail" due to "high velocity"or used a heavier bullet than I normally would...

on a lighter note it is very hard to beat the old 7x57 for "most" deer hunting situations...its also hard to beat a 243 if you put the bullet where it is suppose to go...my brother swears by his 308 and I have 2 cousins that refuse to use anything other than their 270 and 25'06 and all of us use a tree off and on and none of us has a compact rifle or one "strictly for" treestand hunting. One thing else I know is if old Mr. Wiley Buck dares to show his self when the sun is just braking the horizon and the morning is calm and I am sitting any where between 5-400+ yards from him in a "good" stand, he is not going much farther.  :sniper:  :grin:

[Mac11700]

A 600 yard shot while sitting in a tree? Yeah right.  Your 257 Weatherby is not what I would consider a treestand rifle though it's high velocity would require tougher bullets than my 7x57 or 308.  On the other hand for Whitetails I will say they are both superior to the 257 Weatherby under the circumstances this deer is usually hunted.

You apparently haven't been to-many places that would afford you such a shot have you...in all honesty...if you had a cartridge that could go the distance...I have a place to hunt that would give you well over 1000 unubstuctive yards...sitting on top of a levee right along the Mississippi river in northern Missouri...and they have some huge trees that you could put any type treestand in you could imagine...so don't even go there with that......


There are many different hunting situations...than just hunting up close...you could use a 45-70 as I had suggested before...or a 50 cal for all I care...read what I said...

some shots can be up to 600 yards if one was inclind to take the shot...

this doesn't mean that I would...but that I COULD if I wanted to...and further still...

On the other hand for Whitetails I will say they are both superior to the 257 Weatherby under the circumstances this deer is usually hunted.

I do hope you mean... the deer you hunt and where you hunt...and how you hunt...really ......to each his on...namely because opinions varies...and everyone has one...just one question though...have you ever shot a deer with a 257 Weatherby? If not what makes the 308 or the 7x57 Superior?


Mac

[rickt300]

I won't shoot at a deer over 350 yards with any rifle.  Deer hunting to me is just that, they are not pieces of paper or rocks.  The more moderate cartridges combine a blend of good penetration and reasonable meat damage at all normal ranges.  They fit better in light short rifles than the 257 W. or 264 Win mag, I own one of the latter and I feel this rifle is a bit long for enclosed box stands and some too heavy to have laying on my lap on a tree stand for hours.  The 264 does get to go deer hunting but not from any tree stand.

[cam69conv]

Like you and several have said...to each his own...I have had 1 bad experiance with them and Im sorry to say but to me that deer I am hunting DESERVES a quick and clean kill...Now to me a deer running 100 yards and then gettin up to try to GORE me is NOT a quick and clean kill...1 is enough for me..I personaly think that the better bullets are what an animal giving his life for you to eat are the LEAST it deserves..I am not alone in this opinion on the core locs..30.06 is damn near the PERFECT deer caliber as most will agree.. You are good from 0 to 500 and unless you are hunting the western plains then that should be more than enough range.. I have hunted all over the country and this is my OWN experiance..You can take it or leave it.. If you have never had a bad experiance with the core junk then you are one of the lucky few..Now to express my opinion about the Hog shot....30 yards with an .06 and you didnt blow through it like butter??? Heck son I blow through a hog at 30 yards with my dang BOW...If my .06 didnt blow through Id wrap the dang sucker around a tree..I have found with Hogs the best bullet for my .06 Is a 150 grain hornady SP...Great penetration..Minimal meat loss...Always a pass through..I have dropped 200 pound hogs on the run with shoulder to shoulder shots always passin through...They go NO WHERE..Now I like that for one simple reason...I dont know if you have ever had to deal with a pissed off Boar...But I have and lemmi tell ya...IT AINT PRETTY...I want a cartrige that I KNOW will drop it like a stone..Thems ma 2 cents

[rickt300]

I find it funny that you with your "one" bad experience with a 150 grain CL are so convinced that every one of those "junk" bullets act just the same.  Complete penetration is not necesary for a quick kill.  It is also funny that you think I am one of the "few" satisfied users of  Remington Corelokt bullets as it could be easily argued that more deer, antelope and elk are taken with these bullets every year than any other.  As far as expecting a 150 grain Corelokt  to "blow thru" a feral hog on a broadside hit that includes a far side shoulder hit deatroying the ball and blade  with an impact velocity that exceeds the velocity of your 06 at the muzzle I feel I got excellent performance.  That said I don't think you hit the invincible grumpy deer very solidly in the lungs,  that you followed up too quickly and that you aproached the downed deer from the wrong direction, showing me that your experience is narrow in scope.  As for not being alone in your dismal opinion I will bet that even on this forum there are many that have no problems with Corelokts.

[lilabner]

I'll side with lawdog, assuming we are talking about a modern, high velocity cartridge. Their bullets are more likely to break up at short range while still going full steam, so it makes sense to use bullets built to hold together and penetrate. My father in law used a 45/70 and it would not be a short range problem - too big and slow, a sure killer as far out as you can hit with one. I handload and Nosler Partitions have been my bullet of choice for many years. They expand rather quickly to about twice their original diameter, then hang together and keep on trucking. I suppose you could load down to 30-30 ballistics and safely use a bullet with lots of exposed lead and a lighter construction, but I've never tried that. You never know when a long range shot might come along and you'll need a flat shooting round.

[rickt300]

The thread started out as ideas for a treestand hunter as far as specific needs for that kind of hunting.  Generally shots are close most of the time less than 100 yards so a really high velocity rifle is not needed.  Also shots are usually well placed and deer don't present a tough target when hit right.  I can't imagine that Remington or Winchester would get away with marketing bullets unsatisfactory for the mainstay of their existence which is deer hunting..

[cam69conv]

Ok to address Rick on a couple of things... The shot was dead on 1 onch behind the shoulder and 2 inches on midline...That (in case your vast experiance didnt know) is dead center lungs. I have hunted and taken at least one of every big game animal in North America EXCEPT Moose..Havnt had the luck on a draw for them yet and I aint payin 6 to 10 grand to hunt an animal.. And no sir I DIDNT follow up on the deer too quickly... Heck I waited 15 min before I even started walkin up to where I shot it at. I knew the shot placement was good so I didnt wait my usuall 30 min... For you to try to insult someone on here is NOT what this forum was created for..Now I also said the 150 grain is my choice for HOG..The bullet I was useing on the "grumpy deer" as you called it was a 180 grain core junk.... Now as to the original question on this thread Its all in accordance to what you will have in opportunity on your shots...If you dont feel that your shots will be over 150 yards then any good "brush gun" that you are comfy with would be fantastic... Ive taken many deer with my beloved 1rst deer rifle...An old winchester 30/30 Also good is a rem .35 cal.. Killed several out of a treestand with those too..If your not comfortable with a lever action then my suggestion to you would be the all purpose 30.06 or a good .270...Hornady and Nosler and several other bullet manufacturers have many good bullets for these cals. But like a few have said you want a good bullet that can reach out if needed or not blow apart in them lovely 10 yard shots that we all dream about...Oh and one more thing to Rick...If you look on MANY threads on here you will find that I am FAR from alone on my opinion on core junk..Sorry but alot of us wonder how they keep selling them...Maybe its the inexperiance of some individuals that havnt had the wonderful benifit of being able to get a vast majority of votes from true hunters with true life experiance...I do get about 5% of my knowledge from books and magazines and most of THEM even strike the core junk out...Low penetration...Low weight retention...Sorry but to me that is not performance...thats a let down

[Mac11700]

The thread started out as ideas for a treestand hunter as far as specific needs for that kind of hunting.  Generally shots are close most of the time less than 100 yards so a really high velocity rifle is not needed.  Also shots are usually well placed and deer don't present a tough target when hit right.  I can't imagine that Remington or Winchester would get away with marketing bullets unsatisfactory for the mainstay of their existence which is deer hunting..

Well rickt300...go back and really read what was asked...

These are just a few thoughts I am interested in what others have found out by tree stand hunting.

As you should see...he's interested in what other folks have found out when tree stand hunting...and one other thing friend...not all of us set up our stands to hunt in the thick stuff...like when we bowhunt...we also set up our stands to take advantage of our extended veiwing ability..

Generally shots are close most of the time less than 100 yards so a really high velocity rifle is not needed

How about ....overlooking fields or along power line cuts...just slightly into the woods...or how about just below a ridge-line over looking open timber where shots can also be very lenghty,and a high velocity rifle does come in handy... you see there are many different ways to tree stand hunt...and I believe that is what Buckfevor is interested in ...finding about the experiances of others here...not just one persons veiwpoint...

Complete penetration is not necesary for a quick kill.

Many of us here feel that a complete pass thru gives the best chance of recovering any animal we shoot...and I know that you can kill deer with out that  happening...but the majic word is Prefered,and while the core-locks have taken their fair share of game...they are not the Prefered bullet of choice for many different  people for many reasons...and poor performance  being just one of them...

Everyone is intitaled to their opinion...just because it doesn't jive with yours...or mine...is no reason to be insulting...now is it.......


Mac

[rickt300]

Being up in a tree 20-30 or more feet in a climber or strap on stand really doesn't give enough stability for long shots.  I reload and my favorite deer bullets are Speer, Hornady and Sierra.  Most of the Corelokts I have used on game happened to be in brass I was emptying to load these other bullets in or in one case used because the airline wouldn't let me use aftermarket  cartridge boxes to ship my reloads to Wyoming for an elk hunt.  I have taken a 300 pound Mule deer with a 150 grain CL, a 5 point elk with a 180 grain CL from a 30-06, numerous whitetails with the 30-30 and the 150 RNCL, several large feral hogs with the 170 grain RNCL and an antelope with a 130 grain CL from a 270.  In all cases "IF" the bullet was recovered it was in one piece and kills were quick.  I started using the 165 PSPCL in my 308 last year and on three whitetails and one feral hog all bullets exited.  Another thing the guys in this forum hardly represent even 1 percent of the people that hunt and their opinions are likely to be skewed toward what they think is new and neat.  The partition on everthing crowd is a good example though this bullet does not always give the fastest of kills on smaller game animals.  Then there is the velocity is everything crowd though poor bullet performance is often directly related to high velocity impacts (over 2800fps) as is excessive meat damage.

[cam69conv]

True we are not the vast majority of the population of hunters but our experiances are true and real.. If you havnt had any bad experiances with the core junk then we are happy and excited for you..But one question though..If you are SO happy with them..why do you RELOAD with HORNADY? This is a little confusing to me.. I know when I find a combination that works well for my hunting needs I stick with it..Im an old dog and I dont take to new tricks easily..Im FAR from a conformist and I dont follow the crowd.. I takes quite alot of proving for me to even TRY something new..Now as far as excessive speeds..I look at it this way..You hunt with what you feel you will NEED that day..If Im hunting an open field edge and I know I may have a 400 yard shot then I used my 7mm mag..If Im hunting heavy brush and I cant see clearly more than 40 yards then Ill break out old trusty 30/30.. If I feel I may have BOTH then its the old 30.06... If I feel I dont know what im gonna need then I stay home with the wife and get a back rub (if Ive been a good boy that is)   LOL.. We all have our opinions as you do but we do our best NOT to try to be demeaning to each other or belittleing (think I spelled them right) We will insult the heck out of certain equipment that we have had bad experiances with as this is what this forum is for...TO GET OPINIONS ON EQUIPMENT AND HUNTING STRATAGIES.. NOT to insult each other..If you feel you are the king of all hunters then Im proud as heck of ya..I know I am a good hunter for 3 reasons and 3 only..Im SAFE..I practice with ALL of my equipment regularly and know it well, as far as its capabilities and its drawbacks..and last but not least I respect the animal that I am hunting, along with the land that is providing the wonderfull bounty that I pursue..In that respect a fall back to my second reason..I want to provide the quickest most humane way of takeing the life of an animal that is giving itself so that I and my family may eat.. Maybe instead of concentrating so hard on tryin to insult others that are simply stateing what they have experianced you can actually look at what they are trying to say..  :wink:

[Mac11700]

Another thing the guys in this forum hardly represent even 1 percent of the people that hunt and their opinions are likely to be skewed toward what they think is new and neat. The partition on everthing crowd is a good example though this bullet does not always give the fastest of kills on smaller game animals. Then there is the velocity is everything crowd though poor bullet performance is often directly related to high velocity impacts (over 2800fps) as is excessive meat damage.

I'm going to take issue with your comments here...somewhat
...this is probably the Best site on the web...IMHO....all you have to do is take a look at the numbers and you'll see just how many others think so too.As far as I can tell none of the other sites have as much traffic on them on some of the topics offered here by GBO management...oh sure they may more in a few areas...but try having a cival disagreement on those others guys sites....it instantly turns into a flaming war......that won't happen here..

Another thing the guys in this forum hardly represent even 1 percent of the people that hunt and their opinions are likely to be skewed toward what they think is new and neat

While some here may base their opinions like this....there are many more that base it on fact and previous hunts...

The partition on everthing crowd is a good example though this bullet does not always give the fastest of kills on smaller game animals

I use Noslers partiitons and I know many more guys who won't use anything else  andthey and I have had great luck with them from a variity of rifles...using them all the way down to ground hogs...they have always done exactly as they advertised giving me one shot kills and complete penatration...and on the 10 point buck I shot last season...he went a few feet and piled up dead...giving me a blood trail that a child could follow,I'm sorry you don't like shots that pass completely thru the animal...cause this is what it sounds like to me....if you ever get the opourtunity to use them..you see just how well the do...but then again you don't use them or possible see the need...so you'll never know...

Then there is the velocity is everything crowd though poor bullet performance is often directly related to high velocity impacts (over 2800fps) as is excessive meat damage.

Here you seem to think that anything over 2800 fps is going to cause excessive meat loss and that those who choose to use magnum rifles choose to use bullets that don't preform...well your analogy is a bit off...you see most manufactures have started offerring Premium bullets for those of use who choose to buy factory...why???...because cheap bullets fail on high velocity impacts.....so they have to offer something that won't fail...for all ranges used.....and for the last time....If you put your bullet in the correct place...no matter what type of rifle you use...you won't have excessive meat damage......


I'm really glad you've had good luck with your core-locks...I  know others here have too....but again...NOT EVERYONE HAS......because every hunting situation is different...and we all have different needs or expectations and experiances and the failures isn't always due to poor bullet placement....



When you state things as fact...folks will take issue with you...if they are your opinions...then say it like they are your opinion

Being up in a tree 20-30 or more feet in a climber or strap on stand really doesn't give enough stability for long shots.

Don't you really mean...your stands don't offer you the stability for long shots...


My API Original strap on with it's T-Screw...is more than secure for ANY shot I take...from P.B.R. to as far as I can see...on the trees I set up in...maybe not your and the type of trees you set up in...but a tleast for my hunting purposes...and it is stable from 3' all the way up the tree because I make it stable and I know how to shoot long distances from it...

Like I said before...not everyone here likes core-locks for one reason or another...I didn't say no-one...

Mac

[MGMorden]

Anyone who says that use of a premium bullet is wasted on game animals has probably only killed paper.  

I'll disagree with you there.  Just about every person I know uses el cheapo Winchester Silver-box factory ammo.  My dad killed 12 last year, one of my Uncles got 37 deer last year and another got 24 (no yearly bag limit here.  Just a 2 per day limit).  I myself am the only one who handloads and I got 6 (all that I shot, and all but 1 dropped in their tracks) with handloaded cheapo .30 cal Winchester 150gr JSP.  Maybe all those deer would be more dead with a premium bullet, but I doubt it.

[rickt300]

I use a lot of different bullets and unlike a number on this forum have had few absolute bullet failures, 2 to be exact.  Cam69conv where in my posts have I directly insulted you?.  A question though, after the 180 grain CL went in just behind the shoulder how did it fail?  If it failed to make an exit it must have expanded violently which would cause massive damage and a quick kill.  Why did you disregaurd your standard 30 minute wait before trying to recover the deer which you must have seen make a strong run.  If it tried to gore you then you had to aproach it from the front, why?  It's not that I think Corelokts are the best of all bullets but for deer if they shoot well in your rifle then you will have as reliable a bullet as you can buy.  Back to the Nosler Partition, have I had this bullet fail to penetrate, no.  Have I had this bullet give small exit holes that did not bleed well, yes.  Have I had to track elk and deer that traveled unusually long distances after being well hit, yes.  Have I had rifles that would not shoot them well, yes.  Did in any of these cases did the bullet fail,  no I recovered every Animal. I can say that I got poor performance on 3 different occasions using the Nosler Partition. But the Speer Hotcor's in 180 and 200 grain spitzer 308 caliber bullets I use for elk have performed as well and usually better in all instances on large game.  This said in my experience I am happy that you are lucky enough to regularly get good performance using Nosler Partitions.

[rickt300]

Oh yeah, tree stands are not unstable due to how tight they are to the tree.  It's more along the lines that they (trees) naturally sway a bit in the wind.  200 yards is a long shot 30 feet up in a tree no matter how well you are strapped in.

[Cabin4]

Lawdog,                                                                                                 I've got in to the "habit" of putting a lot of the "experts" that peruse these forums and others on the spot just to get their reaction.I'm sure you have seen many cases where a simpe question or difference of opinion brings out the a__ hole in many users. .

Whats a good forum without a little bit of raw meat thrown in the middle of the room once in a while !

[cam69conv]

Look back in your posts Rick...It is a direct INSULT to say that my INEXPERIANCE is obvious...I approached the deer from BEHIND and when I checked it by tapping it with my Rifle It jumped and turned..Now as to answer your other lil diddy about the hit..It looked like from the wound track (after I had to put another round through it ta kill it) That it hit a rib expanded WAY TO EARLY and got turned MISSING the lungs. Now where in this picture do you see ANYTHING done wrong..except for the piss poor bullet performance..When I hit a deer DIRECTLY in the center of the lungs on a broadside shot with a 180 grain bullet from a 30.06 at 2750fps muzzel velocities, at just a lil past 150 then hell no I DONT expect that animal to be goin far AT ALL...And I sure as hell dont expect it to get up after its been down 20 or so min (I walked slow to it) and try hornin me...Now granted I AINT perfect but IN MY OPINION I made absolutely NO mistakes EXCEPT trusting core junk. Again the point will be stressed..Its all well and good that you have been lucky so far with them...Jim dandy fine...We are just expressing our OWN opinion on them..NOT AT YOU but ABOUT THE CORE JUNK.. Now as far as takeing a shot past 200 yards up 20/30 feet up a tree hell no...But In a gun stand I rarely go up more than 15 and most trees I get in are pretty beefy and dont sway much..+ most of us aint gonna take a shot past 200 In winds heavy enough to be swayin an oak tree anyway...We may not be perfect but most of us are far from ignorant. You seem to have some knowledge about hunting and that is wonderful...But try watching how you put things. MOST anyone would have taken what you said first post towards me as an insult to my intelligence and my hunting abilities.. I dont insult anyone on here from the greenest of hunters to the old hats at it like me..ANYONE can learn something new every day as I do my best to do...Ive actually learned a couple of things from my 15 year old in huntin..We all have our ideas some good some bad and we wont know which is which untill tried

[Mac11700]

most trees I get in are pretty beefy and dont sway much..+ most of us aint gonna take a shot past 200 In winds heavy enough to be swayin an oak tree anyway.

........ain't that the truth...if it's blowing enough to move me...I'll be stalking them on the ground,taking advantage of the wind noise....it's also a-lot easier to keep warm moving then too...

I guess the reason for all the misunderstanding here...as far as the tree stand issue...is how different everyone is and  how they utilize them...I have good friends that would no more climb up into a tree stand of anytype to hunt ...and also some who only hunt from them.Some of these "stands" are really miniature tree houses with all the creature comforts of home...to using just the limbs of the trees to"roost" in...home-made stands to some of the most expensive tree blinds ...all of them work...some just give you more options than others...me...I like to hunt...period...and I  look at them as another tool to use...and I always try to use the right tool for the right job...so sometimes I use them...other times I won't bother...it all depends on where I hunt and what the conditions are at the time...


As to the core-lock issue...I'm wondering if most of the failures of these...came prior to them being re-done into a bonded core...and having the jacket thickend as they are now with the ultra's...


Mac

[rickt300]

Fine, I am glad this is all settled.  I am looking forward to hunting this year in Oklahoma, Wyoming and Texas.  Lucked out and drew my elk tag.  Still trying to deciide on my 30-06 or my 270.  No matter what hunting is still hunting and nothing is written in stone.

[cam69conv]

Good luck on your hunt in Wyoming there Rick ya lucky skunk..lol...From what I gather about Wyoming Hunts for elk you are apt to find just about every kind of shot known to man...In other words Id carry the most versitile weapon ya have...One that you arent afraid ta shoot one of them ole long winded shots...Definatly load up some 180's for whichever ya take...Them ole Elk can be easy knockdowns but the can be tough critters too...Just accordin ta how mean it feels that day....270 Has very nice flat trajectory and decent knockdown footpounds if loaded to tha hilt...But If I had ma druthers Id take tha .06...Little less velocities but little more punch...

[rickt300]

Since I am going with my gunsmith and he built my 30-06 back in 1986 I guess I have to take it.  Load will be 200 grain Speer spitzer hotcor loaded to 2650 or so. Where we hunt you seldom get a really long shot.  My timber rifle will be a 54 caliber muzzleloader pushing 410 grain minie bullets on top of 120 grains of 3F or 100 grains of pyrodex.

[cam69conv]

Yeeeeehawwwww That oughtta knock one on its bum quickly...Good choice as long as ya dont try ta push it past 200 yrds... But ya dont feel like ya will have to so bust one up fer me... Im goin on a hunt in Main this year for Elk, Red deer , and Bow hunt on whitetail combo,,,,I think Imma push the envelope a little on the red deer...Never hunted one before ( not North american game animal) and Ive never had the chance to hunt in Europe..I think Imma load up some rounds for ma old .303 British enfeild..Think some good 180 sp's should do tha trick..Only 2468 on the speed but fabulous rates on the foot pounds...Just not sure weather to try Horny's or noslersI know they are smaller than Elk and bigger than deer...Just not positive...lol May just say scwuu it and take the ole 444 marlin fer both...260 grain oughtta knockum on thier rumps...Wont be shootin past 100 yards the guide said so no  worries I dont think with either...

[oneshotonekill]

Ok On the "cheap bullets" thing...I also have had bad experiance with the rem core junk...example...30.06...deer at 25 yards...Shot deer...broadside..Lungs...deer ran 100 yards...got to deer...deer tried gorin me to death...shot deer in spine right between shoulders..point plank range...guess what I found...BOTH BULLETS IN DEER...Sorry but in my opinion that is just pee poor performance.

When I hit a deer DIRECTLY in the center of the lungs on a broadside shot with a 180 grain bullet from a 30.06 at 2750fps muzzel velocities, at just a lil past 150 then hell no I DONT expect that animal to be goin far AT ALL...And I sure as hell dont expect it to get up after its been down 20 or so min (I walked slow to it) and try hornin me

Well how far was it cam???

Some of the older core-locts were known for not holding together.  For the last 10 years they have been built a little better but there are several folks that had a bad experience with the older core-lokts and have turned away from them.  I've heard good reports on the new bonded core-lokt ultras but have not tried them.

As far as a tree stand gun I would say it would depend on which tree stand I'd be using.  I have stands overlooking fairly open areas where shots over 400 yards are possible and others that shots over 25 yards would be unlikely.  For an all round stand gun I'd have to choose my 308 bolt gun.  Its short enough to handle well in just about any tree stand and it is capable of handling just about any shot opportunity I may get from 0-400 yards.

[cam69conv]

lol OOPS meant 125 der boss....somewhere between 125 and 160...didnt really step it off....And yes this was one of the older core junks...was about 9 years ago