removing the nails

[locust]

I had wondered how the nails were removed that held both Jesus and likewise the other two men.

the nails were not made of steel they would of been made of iron . bend the nail a little left then a little right then repeat that. the nail would snap off right at the wood surface.

all would of been much easier with it being a cross or just a pole of wood,haven been laid down for easy access  .

tada 

[ironglow]

  Not seeking to debate more...just FYI...from a blacksmith/history buff view..

  The Romans had a tool, an otherwise straight bar with claws, bent slightly to allow leverage... then to a wood block would proivide a height adjustment for pulling over a hand or arm.

  At various demonstrations, at the NY State fair etc., I would make crucifixion style nails and hand them out to and pastors oo Bible teachers or
    Sunday School teachers in attendance.  They make great teaching aids.

     Roman nails were of course, of a square shaft, which holds much better in wood than any round nail. A square nail when driven in, breaks the grain and pulls the broken grain inward with it...that grain then resists the nail being pulled.

  They often used pieces of wood to act as "washers" so the nail heads would not pull through the flesh.

  Evidently, the Romans did not value their iron nails near as much as we may think.  As the Romans abandoned the Antonine wall
   In Scotland, they buried hundreds of thousands of nails.

    They buried them, so the wild Calidonian tribes wouild not easily forge the nails into weapons to use against the Romans, further south !

  I had opportunity, so I bought a set of 3 of those nails which were dug up.

    Being iron, they lasted until today. Had they been steel as they are today, they would have rusted away long ago.

    https://www.scran.ac.uk/packs/exhibitions/learning_materials/webs/56/Inch.htm

 

   

     

     

[Bob Riebe]

Romans did know how to make steel nails, although most of their nails were made from iron, and they were able to produce relatively high-quality steel through their metalworking techniques, allowing them to create nails from this material as well; archaeological evidence shows numerous Roman iron nails found at various sites, including a large hoard of nails discovered at the fortress of Inchtuthil in Scotland.
Key points about Roman nails:

    Material: Primarily made from iron, but some steel nails were also produced.
    Production method: Hand-forged by Roman blacksmiths in their workshops.
    Evidence: Many Roman iron nails have been found at archaeological sites across the Roman Empire.

[Graybeard]

What possible difference can it make 2000 years later? Without written evidence how could you possibly ever know anyway?

[Lloyd Smale]

yup the real importance is they were put in. how they were take out doesn't matter. kind of comical youd look at the crucifixion and that thought would even waste 10 seconds of thinking. about like looking at the titanic and asking which veggy was served for supper that night

[Mule 11]

He has apparently been trying to make a point about his religious doctrine for years and the only accomplishment has been being a royal pain in the arse.

[ironglow]

  Actually, the details of historical evidence concerning iron, steel, cricifixion or any other subject, doesn't interest most people..unless they are
  greatly engaged with history itself.

 Just as some exert themselves to study car & trucks, hunting , fishing, oil painting or today's electronic technology..so the person who realizes
   that history is our roots, and still explains many of mankind's quirks and decisions, and so, goes on to seek historical information.
 
      "One thing we learn from history, is that we don't learn from history !"   (Hegel)

    "Those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it !"  (Santyana)

  ..But being a history aficinado, as with any other specialized study, is not for everybody..just as the skills mentioned above., are not for all.

     Yes, in early years, steel was made in very small quantities, by hammering in quantities of carbon (often burned leather).  Off hand , I know of no 
      strictly Roman    examples..though likely some do exist.

     There are excellent examples of "Damascus steel"  (pattern welded) in various weapons from the medieval period, such as found in some Viking
     swords etc, but the technique of manufacture was lost to history in recent centuries.

     Then in the early 1970s, Bill Moran..noted knife maker, rediscovered the process..and pattern welded steel is a rather common material used by
    knife smiths of today..

       Andrew Carnagie pioneered modern steel making by way of the Bessemer process..  Thus, at about the turn of the 20th century, iron production
     yeilded almost completely to steel production..

[Bob Riebe]

https://evsmetal.com/2018/12/history-of-steel.html
Crucible steel has been around for a long, long time, Bessemer made affordable to the masses.

Steel is one of the most common metals from which EVS fabricates parts and products. Archeologists and historians believe that steel has been being produced for almost 4000 years; this makes sense, as that puts the timeline at the beginning of the Iron Age — iron being the primary element used to manufacture steel.

The history of steel is long and fascinating. While we have no idea exactly who it was that actually “invented” steel, examining its origin and viewing its production and implementation from its earliest days can help give some context around why exactly it is that steel has been incredibly important to multiple civilizations through the centuries, and remains so to this day.
The Beginnings of Steel

Starting in the 13th century BC, archeologists have found evidence that blacksmiths were the first to begin to synthesize steel. Like many inventions, it was likely a happy accident, the result of iron being left too long in coal furnaces that contain high levels of carbon, which is a component of steel. The carbon made the iron stronger, harder and more durable.

About 700 years later, in the 6th century BC, “wootz” steel was born in India, which is a beautifully textured metal that is still sought after to this day. “Wootz” steel is the result of combining wrought iron and charcoal during the smelting process. 600 years later (around 300 AD), India’s neighbor China began to produce steel in true mass quantities — the first country to do so. Damascus steel — a very hard type of steel primarily used for sword or knife blades due to its ability to be honed to a razor-like edge — made its debut in the Middle East in the 11th century.
Steel in the 1700-1800s

The 18th century brought a number of inventions and disruptions that would greatly impact the evolution of steel. These include the invention of the first successful steam engine, the development of the crucible steel technique, the introduction of steam power into steel mills, and the invention of the steel roller.

The 1800s, however, were even more vital to steel’s eventual rise to the place it holds today around the world. This century ushered in the American agricultural boom of the 1830s; the introduction of the Bessemer process in 1855 — the first inexpensive industrial process for the mass production of steel from molten iron; and the invention of the open-hearth furnace in 1865. Just a few years later, the end of the American Civil War led to enormous growth in the U.S.’ production of steel. This same period saw the invention of tungsten steel — a type of air-hardening steel — by Robert Mushet. This meant that for the first time, steel wouldn’t need to be “quenched” before it hardened, a huge advance for the industry.
Steel from the 1900s-Today

The open-hearth process of steel production that was invented in the mid-1800s eventually made steel both less expensive to make and of higher quality. This directly contributed to the Industrial Revolution, much of which can be credited to capitalists and industrialists like Charles Schwab and Andrew Carnegie. In fact, when Andrew Carnegie founded US Steel Corporation in 1901, it was the first company ever launched with an initial valuation of over $1 billion.

The 20th century also ushered in the age of the automobile, and was greatly fueled by two World Wars that made steel an absolute necessity to many governments well into the 1940s. This boom was aided by the invention of electric arc furnace steelmaking, a process that by the early 1940s was being used for the vast majority of steel manufacturing. Finally, in the 1960s, Oxygen steelmaking made its debut as an even more efficient process, leading to the closure of the last remaining open-hearth facilities by the very beginning of the 21st century, in 2001.

Wootz steel originated in the mid-1st millennium BC in India, wootz steel was made in Golconda in Telangana, Karnataka and Sri Lanka.[2][3][4][5] The steel was exported as cakes of steely iron that came to be known as "wootz". The method was to heat black magnetite ore in the presence of carbon in a sealed clay crucible inside a charcoal furnace to completely remove slag. An alternative was to smelt the ore first to give wrought iron, then heat and hammer it to remove slag. The carbon source was bamboo and leaves from plants such as Avārai. Locals in Sri Lanka adopted the production methods of creating wootz steel from the Cheras by the 5th century BC.[8] In Sri Lanka, this early steel-making method employed a unique wind furnace, driven by the monsoon winds. Production sites from antiquity have emerged, in places such as Anuradhapura, Tissamaharama and Samanalawewa, as well as imported artifacts of ancient iron and steel from Kodumanal. Recent archaeological excavations (2018) of the Yodhawewa site (in Mannar District) discovered the lower half of a spherical furnace, crucible fragments, and lid fragments related to the crucible steel production through the carburization process. In the South East of Sri Lanka, there were some of the oldest iron and steel artifacts and production processes to the island from the classical period

[ironglow]

  I would surmise that being as smithing necessarily demanded the use of coal, charcoal etc., some carbon would have become forged into the
   iron at some point..

  That is how many discoveries were made.  Same as the discovery of sugar relation to diabetes was noted, when a researcher tasted the related sweetness of the diabetic's urine.

  Don't ask me how that happened..except the lab guy must not have washed his hands before eating....    

[locust]

  Not seeking to debate more...just FYI...from a blacksmith/history buff view..

  The Romans had a tool, an otherwise straight bar with claws, bent slightly to allow leverage... then to a wood block would proivide a height adjustment for pulling over a hand or arm.

  At various demonstrations, at the NY State fair etc., I would make crucifixion style nails and hand them out to and pastors oo Bible teachers or
    Sunday School teachers in attendance.  They make great teaching aids.

     Roman nails were of course, of a square shaft, which holds much better in wood than any round nail. A square nail when driven in, breaks the grain and pulls the broken grain inward with it...that grain then resists the nail being pulled.

  They often used pieces of wood to act as "washers" so the nail heads would not pull through the flesh.

  Evidently, the Romans did not value their iron nails near as much as we may think.  As the Romans abandoned the Antonine wall
   In Scotland, they buried hundreds of thousands of nails.

    They buried them, so the wild Calidonian tribes wouild not easily forge the nails into weapons to use against the Romans, further south !

  I had opportunity, so I bought a set of 3 of those nails which were dug up.

    Being iron, they lasted until today. Had they been steel as they are today, they would have rusted away long ago.

    https://www.scran.ac.uk/packs/exhibitions/learning_materials/webs/56/Inch.htm

 

   

     

     

many will argue that no one was ever taken down

[ironglow]

  From Locust;
   
 
          "many will argue that no one was ever taken down'                  

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   

   Mmmmm...NOT MANY !                                           

[locust]

i'm not referring to Jesus .
when referring to crucifixion many  believe  that the body of any one crucified hung there and rotted till it fell off.

[locust]

  Not seeking to debate more...just FYI...from a blacksmith/history buff view..

  The Romans had a tool, an otherwise straight bar with claws, bent slightly to allow leverage... then to a wood block would proivide a height adjustment for pulling over a hand or arm.

  At various demonstrations, at the NY State fair etc., I would make crucifixion style nails and hand them out to and pastors oo Bible teachers or
    Sunday School teachers in attendance.  They make great teaching aids.

     Roman nails were of course, of a square shaft, which holds much better in wood than any round nail. A square nail when driven in, breaks the grain and pulls the broken grain inward with it...that grain then resists the nail being pulled.

  They often used pieces of wood to act as "washers" so the nail heads would not pull through the flesh.

  Evidently, the Romans did not value their iron nails near as much as we may think.  As the Romans abandoned the Antonine wall
   In Scotland, they buried hundreds of thousands of nails.

    They buried them, so the wild Calidonian tribes wouild not easily forge the nails into weapons to use against the Romans, further south !

  I had opportunity, so I bought a set of 3 of those nails which were dug up.

    Being iron, they lasted until today. Had they been steel as they are today, they would have rusted away long ago.

    https://www.scran.ac.uk/packs/exhibitions/learning_materials/webs/56/Inch.htm

 

   

     

     

how many of those nail removing devices were there in the roman empire ?

[ironglow]

From Locust;

       " how many of those nail removing devices were there in the roman empire ? "

   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Who knows?  Not many remain of course.. 

   For instance, during the first century C.E., the Romans carried a standing army of about 350,000, and each soldier was isued the traditional pattern helmet, so one may conclude that there should be plenty of them around...

    However there are only a very few to be found in collections around the world.

    Throughout history, iron served a purpose, and once that purpose was over, the iron was re-purposed.  Where the helmets fell into other, enemy
  hands it was reused or repurposed.

   I found excellent examples of such repurposing among the America Indians of the plains. During the nineteenth century, Indian arrows by that
     time, were not all chipped from flint or other stones.  Cleverly, those Indian tribes fashioned arrowheads from pieces of iron they obtained from
  various sources.

     Perhaps some of Custer's men were skewered with a piece of an old, discarded cooking or pot spatula!  Even old cartridge cases could be
   fashioned into fine, flesh cutting arrowheads !

     Sometimes true history is not exactly as the movies or popular novels present it !

  I am still puzzled as to why the Roman army did not take those nails from the Antonine wall along with them, unless they left in a great hurry.

    Not hard to understand why they buried them though, since each nail would have made an excellent arrow or spear point for a wild, Caledonian
    tribesman..

   

     

[locust]

From Locust;

       " how many of those nail removing devices were there in the roman empire ? "

   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Who knows?  Not many remain of course.. 

   For instance, during the first century C.E., the Romans carried a standing army of about 350,000, and each soldier was isued the traditional pattern helmet, so one may conclude that there should be plenty of them around...

    However there are only a very few to be found in collections around the world.

    Throughout history, iron served a purpose, and once that purpose was over, the iron was re-purposed.  Where the helmets fell into other, enemy
  hands it was reused or repurposed.

   I found excellent examples of such repurposing among the America Indians of the plains. During the nineteenth century, Indian arrows by that
     time, were not all chipped from flint or other stones.  Cleverly, those Indian tribes fashioned arrowheads from pieces of iron they obtained from
  various sources.

     Perhaps some of Custer's men were skewered with a piece of an old, discarded cooking or pot spatula!  Even old cartridge cases could be
   fashioned into fine, flesh cutting arrowheads !

     Sometimes true history is not exactly as the movies or popular novels present it !

  I am still puzzled as to why the Roman army did not take those nails from the Antonine wall along with them, unless they left in a great hurry.

    Not hard to understand why they buried them though, since each nail would have made an excellent arrow or spear point for a wild, Caledonian
    tribesman..

   

   

this device you say was used to remove nails .is it something that to remove a nail person would use atop a ladder? or would it be far smarter to use it if standing on the ground ?
what if one of the nail removers were not available , is there another way to get the nails out ?

[ironglow]

  Can one remove nails while standing on a ladder, by using similar tools today?   Check the link and decide for yourself..

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-12-in-Wonder-Bar-Pry-Bar-55-515K/100093815

[locust]

  Can one remove nails while standing on a ladder, by using similar tools today?   Check the link and decide for yourself..

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-12-in-Wonder-Bar-Pry-Bar-55-515K/100093815

such a tool is good for removing roofing nails . not much good in removing nails big enough to hold up a man nailed to a cross. for that ya need big tools ,two handed tools . often called a crowbar

[ironglow]

  Can one remove nails while standing on a ladder, by using similar tools today?   Check the link and decide for yourself..

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-12-in-Wonder-Bar-Pry-Bar-55-515K/100093815

such a tool is good for removing roofing nails . not much good in removing nails big enough to hold up a man nailed to a cross. for that ya need big tools ,two handed tools . often called a crowbar

  I don't know about you, but I have used a pinch bar to tear down an old barn..from peak to base.

  I always considered a crow bar as a lever only bar as such to pry up rocks or large tree roots.  or even punch a post hole.

    A colloquial for  the 2.5-3 ft crook neck, pry & nail puller around here, is called a "pinch bar".. I've used them from ladders etc for all my life..

  Not so much, now that I am in my 80's though..

[locust]

  Can one remove nails while standing on a ladder, by using similar tools today?   Check the link and decide for yourself..

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-12-in-Wonder-Bar-Pry-Bar-55-515K/100093815

such a tool is good for removing roofing nails . not much good in removing nails big enough to hold up a man nailed to a cross. for that ya need big tools ,two handed tools . often called a crowbar

  I don't know about you, but I have used a pinch bar to tear down an old barn..from peak to base.

  I always considered a crow bar as a lever only bar as such to pry up rocks or large tree roots.  or even punch a post hole.

    A colloquial for  the 2.5-3 ft crook neck, pry & nail puller around here, is called a "pinch bar".. I've used them from ladders etc for all my life..

  Not so much, now that I am in my 80's though..

I have pinch bars  not much good to remove nails

[locust]

before there were crowbars did crows have to drink at home?

[ironglow]

before there were crowbars did crows have to drink at home?

  Good one Locust !

  Crows should not be drinking...they should stay home, play crow-quet..and drink caw-fee !

[locust]

lets now consider the nail . its likely made of iron . when hammered down to be thin and to a point its  strength diminishes . hammer a nail into wood a few inches then give it a hit to one side then to the other and repeat . do that a few times the nail brakes off at the surface of the wood.

[GTS225]

YA SEE WHAT YOU GUYS STARTED?!  This is like trying to shoo Latter Day Saints off your front porch.

Roger

[Dixie-Dude]

Removing nails may not have been necessary.  The hands and feet could have been pulled off after death depending on how big the nail heads were.  Yes, most condemned criminals were left to rot on the crosses.  However, many people knew Jesus and asked for his body and he was given a grave to be buried in.   If his hands and feet were tied onto the cross to hold him, the nails were for pain, not to hold him on. 

Jesus did appear to many showing them His hands, his side, and his feet.  Christianity would have died out if He did not rise from the dead and appear to many, then ascend into heaven with many watching.  Also, another proof of Jesus is the miracles preformed by his disciples and others as the preaching of the Gospel around the world spread.  Christians were persecuted to death around the Roman Empire.  If it wasn't true it would have died out.  Miracles still happen today, but many still do not believe. 

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies for one, He rose from the dead for another.  He is God in the flesh, part of the triune nature of God.  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three in one.  We are created in the image of God with a Body, Soul, and Spirit, all it one.   

[ironglow]

Removing nails may not have been necessary.  The hands and feed could have been pulled off after death depending on how big the nail heads were.  Yes, most condemned criminals were left to rot on the crosses.  However, many people knew Jesus and asked for his body and he was given a grave to be buried in.   If his hands and feet were tied onto the cross to hold him, the nails were for pain, not to hold him on. 

Jesus did appear to many showing them His hands, his side, and his feet.  Christianity would have died out if He did not rise from the dead and appear to many, then ascend into heaven with many watching.  Also, another proof of Jesus is the miracles preformed by his disciples and others as the preaching of the Gospel around the world spread.  Christians were persecuted to death around the Roman Empire.  If it wasn't true it would have died out.  Miracles still happen today, but many still do not believe. 

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies for one, He rose from the dead for another.  He is God in the flesh, part of the triune nature of God.  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three in one.  We are created in the image of God with a Body, Soul, and Spirit, all it one.

   Even some of Jesus' disciples doubted a bit.  Thomas claimed that he wouldn't believe that Jesus was truly God or tru;ly risen, until he could see the wounds in his hands, and thrust his fingers into the wounds.

  When he did meet Jesus shortly after Jesus' resurrection..and jesus challenged him to test his wounds..that Thomas soon realized that Jesus was truly God, and worthy of his worship.......

   Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28And Thomas answered and said to Him,"MY LORD AND MY GOD" !

29Jesus said to him, [f]“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

[Dee]

I had wondered how the nails were removed that held both Jesus and likewise the other two men.

the nails were not made of steel they would of been made of iron . bend the nail a little left then a little right then repeat that. the nail would snap off right at the wood surface.

all would of been much easier with it being a cross or just a pole of wood,haven been laid down for easy access  .

tada 

I think I read in Matthew or Mark that they used a cheap claw hammer, and pry bar Pilot bought on sale at Harbor Freight. 

[locust]

   If his hands and feet were tied onto the cross to hold him, the nails were for pain, not to hold him on. 

i'm going to disagree with you. nails can be  difficult to get out which is a great deterrent to being taken down by someone that's not happy with a friend up there . by nailing the feet it gave the man solid way to lift themselves up to breathe . no nails to the feet the man would die even in the first hour .  then after the man had hung there as long as possible (within the time span of remaining daylight) the legs would be broken .

[ironglow]

   If his hands and feet were tied onto the cross to hold him, the nails were for pain, not to hold him on. 

i'm going to disagree with you. nails can be  difficult to get out which is a great deterrent to being taken down by someone that's not happy with a friend up there . by nailing the feet it gave the man solid way to lift themselves up to breathe . no nails to the feet the man would die even in the first hour .  then after the man had hung there as long as possible (within the time span of remaining daylight) the legs would be broken .

  Whether trhe body was taken down , or left to rot seemingly depended upon the situation.  Yes, after the gladiators reebellion (about 71 BC) some 6,000 of the participants were crucified along the Appian way, near Rome.  They were left there to rot, as a warning to other slaves who may havea been thinking of atteempting a similar move. touldn't have emade the residents too happy !

   That action can not have made the locals very happy !

  In the case of Jesus, in 33 AD Jews were rquired to b burid within 24 hours of their death...which is what the Bible explains, concerning Jesus and His burial..         

   AI Overview
Learn more
Yes, Ancient Rome generally respected Jewish burial customs. Romans allowed Jewish people to bury their dead according to their own religious laws, even when it differed from Roman practices. This included allowing Jews to establish Jewish catacombs outside the city walls, as Roman law prohibited burials within the city. 

[Dixie-Dude]

If Jesus was nailed to the cross before his cross was put in the post hole, the entire cross could have been lifted out of the hole and laid on the ground, then the nails removed.  Who cares, Christianity isn't worried about details, it is by faith. 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Without Faith it is impossible to please God. 

A Christian has God in their hearts and can sense and know when things are wrong, or are pleasing to God.  Hard to explain to a non-Christian. 

[ironglow]

If Jesus was nailed to the cross before his cross was put in the post hole, the entire cross could have been lifted out of the hole and laid on the ground, then the nails removed.  Who cares, Christianity isn't worried about details, it is by faith. 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Without Faith it is impossible to please God. 

A Christian has God in their hearts and can sense and know when things are wrong, or are pleasing to God.  Hard to explain to a non-Christian.

  Some say Jesus carried the crossbar..and the upright was more or less permanently installed on the hill.  In his beaten, tortured condition
  that crossbar was transferred to Simon the Cyrene.

   But that matters not, since the Bible clearly explains how Jesus was crucified, dead and buried.. rose on the third day, defeating death.. and sits beside the Father.

  He will return for us...perhaps soon..