Author Topic: Airspaced black powder cartridge. (Read 1249 times)

Double D · « **on:** January 21, 2004, 01:25:38 PM »

I have always been told that black powder cartridges must never be allowed to have an airspace.

Now I here that theory is being debunked. Does anyone know where this topic is being discussed on the internet? I'd like to know more

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2004, 01:40:47 PM »

Double D

"I have always been told that black powder cartridges must never be allowed to have an airspace.

Now I here that theory is being debunked. Does anyone know where this topic is being discussed on the internet? I'd like to know more[/quote]"

Haven't seen it much discussed on the internet though I mentioned it here, I believe some time back. First I saw it in writing was Steve Garbe's discussions in Black Powder Cartridge magazine several issues ago.

I've not shot any PB cartridges with airspace but some of the loading methods of the schutzen shooters have me wondering. The "no air space" mantra is supposed to apply to the BP substitutes as well but then explian the airspace aroung pellets, in both muzzle loaders and cartridges?

Larry Gibson

The Shrink · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2004, 04:08:46 AM »

Gentlemen

Read what Kenny Wasserberger writes about chamber ringing, then think of what happens in a Schutzen round. The bullet is already in the rifling, there is no bumping up and then down as the bullet starts, stops and then starts again. Schutzen works, I think, because the bullet is only started once and continues down the barrel continuously.

Kenny, I'm not bowing and scraping, but I have utmost faith not only in you skill and knowledge, but in your wisdom in applying the same. I've been listening to you for several years now, and, in the timeless measure of another's wisdom, you have agreed with me when I knew something, taught me when I didn't, and you and rdnck have straightened me out a few times when I thought I knew something but didn't. Don't hesitate to illustrate the latter point if it's true here!

Wayne Smith, aka Shrink

Lead pot · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2004, 05:41:02 AM »

With this subject of air space in a BP cartdridge,I have a tendency to pull my head between my shoulders.I posted this before.
Back in 1956 or 57 I got my first black powder rifle and started casting and loading.It was a rolling block in .43 Spanish,man that thing belted me.So I thought I will just use a little less black powder,I lost my roller because the chamber was big enough for a marbel to roll in.
That was the last time for a reduced black powder load for me.
My feeling with this is,if the load hurts to much,go with a smaller caliber.

Kurt.

w30wcf · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2004, 06:22:11 PM »

Double D,

Historically, there has been factory loaded black powder ammunition with airspace. These were the .32-40 & .38-55 "short range" and .45-70 "armory practice" cartridges. The charges were light as were the bullets, but the fact remains that there was plenty of airspace in these cartridges.

U.M.C. .32-40 Short Range - 98 gr. bullet / 13 grs. of black powder
U.M.C. .38-55 Short Range - 155 gr. bullet / 20 grs. of black powder

U.M.C. .45-70 Armory - 240 gr. bullet / 20 grs. of black powder
U.M.C. .45-70 Armory - 300 gr. bullet / 25 grs. of black powder

I have examples of the first three cartridges in my collection and the powder is definitely loose in the case. I have replicated and fired a number of the .38-55 Short Range and .45-20-240 cartridges with no problems whatsoever.

I have not obtained a sample of the .45-25-300 cartridge so I cannot verify that the powder is loose in the case.

History sure is interesting!

w30wcf

Kenny Wasserburger · « **Reply #5 on:** January 29, 2004, 04:30:43 PM »

Wayne,

Sorry I need to vist this board more often I guess. Air space? thats a good question, the other folks mention gallery and such loads that have lose powder in the case. This most likely works I think because these loads dont have a wad behind that bullet. Now this is my opinion but the wad may act like a bore obsrtuction. The same happens with the sort cases in a long chamber the bullet stops as it bumps up to the chamber then begins moving down the barrel. Again it too acts like a bore obstruction.

Just my opinion,

But since I use wads I wont be loading my cases with anything but 100% load density for the time being.

Kenny Wasserburger

Kenny Wasserburger · « **Reply #6 on:** January 29, 2004, 04:40:49 PM »

PS

Wayne what I forgot to say was I think your right as to the why and where to on Schutzen and the breach seating of bullets into the rifling and the reasons it works.

Just a month ago Chance w/Shiloh and I had the barrel off my 45-110 with a tad over 11,300 rounds down the barrel. it has a few light scratches in the barrel nothing serrious ie it does not lead and still shoots very well. It has never had a less then 100% load density load in this rifle, never will eather.

Its still capable of master class scores at 1000 yards and I am pretty sure it shoots better then I can hold it.

And Thanks for the comments, I try to share what little I know and I am still learning and passing on that as I learn it.

Good shooting,

Kenny Wasserburger

The Shrink · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2004, 01:31:03 PM »

w30wcf

The only thing that impresses me about those loads you posted is that they are small. Will there be enough pressure in those to ring a chamber?

Wayne

w30wcf · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2004, 12:18:03 PM »

The Shrink,

Those cartridges were factory loaded by W.R.A. CO., & U.M.C. and possibly some of the armories. I would imagine that since they offered them as factory cartridges, they did plenty of testing to make sure they would not create any problems.

w30wcf

The Shrink · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2004, 01:08:22 AM »

w30wcf

Yeah, if they were commercial loads I agree, they should have been extensively tested for safety and for danger to the firearm. Ringed chambers have been around almost as long as chambers have been around, and those people were well aware of the danger.

Wayne