22-250 on SB-1

[ghostwalker]

Can you use a 22-250 barrel on a SB-1 receiver?  Seems they used to sell 30-30 barrels for SB-1 and 30-30 has more muzzle energy than a 22-250.  Thanks.

[dk17hmr]

No.  Muzzle energy has nothing to do with it.
 
 The chamber pressure and bolt thrust from a 22-250 will likely unglue a SB-1 action.

[quickdtoo]

What he said, the 22-250 has much more breech thrust than the 30-30, muzzle energy has no relevence to frame strength in this regard, chamber pressure and case head size are the determining factors, 30-30 pressure is 42kpsi, and .422" case head for 5874lbs thrust, compared to 22-250 @ 65kpsi and .470" case head for 11277lbs thrust, a recipe for catastrophic frame failure. 

Tim

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

[petemi]

I thank God he asked before he tried it.  Ya gotta worry about the ones that don't ask.

Pete

[Spanky]

PLEASE DON'T DO IT!!
The SB1 is not and never was made to handle hot cartridges.
You'll most likely destroy the frame or yourself... neither situation is ideal.
 
 
 
Spanky

[BUGEYE]

off topic....  I think I read or heard somewhere that when the cartridge expands and grips the the chamber wall that the thrust was less on the breech or bolt until the case kinda released some of its grip and equalized the pressure on the chamber wall and breech face.

is that something I dreamed or what??

[gendoc]

65k isalot ta dream on................
i'm glad folks ask questions

[c1skout]

There's one for sale on gunbroker, he says it's "custom". http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=317950047

[dave29]

Oh lord....

[Spanky]

Oh Lord is right... somebody's gonna get hurt with that thing.
 
 
 
Spanky

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I think it was Ackley who did experiments on bolt thrust when he was developing his "Improved" line


his finding was indeed the bold thrust was reduced significantly with a straighter walled case, fired with a high pressure load and a clean chamber

IIRC he experimented with a Win94 with the bolt locking arms (for want of the proper term) removed and found the lever didn't open, or just slightly moved.

I am not ready to sacrifice a firearm yet to replicate this, or try to....

[ncloader88]

There's one for sale on gunbroker, he says it's "custom". http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=317950047

  That has been on there forever, good thing he is asking such an impossible price    Didn't notice before that it was on an sb1    Am I wrong in thinking there were never any "case hardened" finish sb2s?

[BUGEYE]

I think it was Ackley who did experiments on bolt thrust when he was developing his "Improved" line


his finding was indeed the bold thrust was reduced significantly with a straighter walled case, fired with a high pressure load and a clean chamber

IIRC he experimented with a Win94 with the bolt locking arms (for want of the proper term) removed and found the lever didn't open, or just slightly moved.

I am not ready to sacrifice a firearm yet to replicate this, or try to....

thanks for the reply. it may have been ackley that I read.  and it makes sense to me. the thin case would expand quicker than the base would move backward. "it being thicker".

[wganz]

¿Why is it that people always think that their firearm will be THE ONE that will be THE EXCEPTION to the rule on handling hot loads? One good thing about human stupidity, that as an RN I'll never be out of work.
 

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I guess guys like Roy Weatherby, P.O. Ackley, Elwood Epps, Ross Seyfreid, Elmer Keith, et al must have spent half their lives in the ER.....

Remember, Urban legends take on a life of their own.

if you have hard evidence, Please show us... 

[petemi]

There's one for sale on gunbroker, he says it's "custom". http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=317950047

  That has been on there forever, good thing he is asking such an impossible price    Didn't notice before that it was on an sb2    Am I wrong in thinking there were never any "case hardened" finish sb2s?

Yes, the Buffalo Classics.

Pete

[ousooners1baby]

Yes, are there any pics of guys getting their arms and ears blown off?

[ncloader88]

Thanks Pete, I should have remembered that

[45-70.gov]

There's one for sale on gunbroker, he says it's "custom". http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=317950047

  That has been on there forever, good thing he is asking such an impossible price    Didn't notice before that it was on an sb1    Am I wrong in thinking there were never any "case hardened" finish sb2s?

bufalo clasic

[petemi]

I went over to gunbroker and used the "ask the seller a question" to try to warn "Strippling", the seller, about the potential dangers.  I advised him to break up the set and sell it that way.  Well, I did that yesterday morning, and the ad is still there.  I guess if you're gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough.  I'm thinking it probably has been fired with the .22-250 barrel and hasn't let go....YET.  I just hope some unwitting guy or his kid doesn't suffer.  That is a really nice combo.  Too bad it's on the wrong frame and the price is too high.  Do I see a shortie .30-40 in my crystal ball?

Pete

[jsn_mooney]

Holy Handgrenades Batman- I'm nervous loading anything remotely "warm" with my .357 Max on an SB1 frame!

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

at SAAMI pressures, the max breech thrust for the 357Max is still only about 3/4 of a 12ga 3" and only 62% of the 3 1/2" that is available on a Pardner SB1

I think your fears are unfounded

even a 3030 is less than a 12ga 3"
the 30-40Krag is about equal to a 12ga 3"

and how many guys have rechambered their SB1 44mag to 445supermag, which runs 9,800lbs breech thrust, or just a hair under the 30-06 at 10,360lbs

the 22-250 is about 1/3 greater than the SB1 Pardner 3 1/3 12ga.

will that produce a catastrophic failure?  I doubt it, but I would not be surprised if it started to stretch the frame, and wreck the gun.

a rifle powder is slower than a shotgun powder, and steel IMO seems to stand up better to slower stresses than quicker stresses, but the elastic limits are stressed more with the longer dwell time, and that is where the danger lay.

[petemi]

I don't think many of us, if any, have our .445s on SB1s.  All of my Handis are on SB2s.  A couple of my shotguns are too, but that's only because I had the frames and they fit well.  I will eventually get them on SB1s.  I seem to have a glut of shotguns lately, so I'll be weeding some out.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

....and how many guys have rechambered their SB1 44mag to 445supermag, which runs 9,800lbs breech thrust, or just a hair under the 30-06 at 10,360lbs

the 22-250 is about 1/3 greater than the SB1 Pardner 3 1/3 12ga.

will that produce a catastrophic failure?  I doubt it, but I would not be surprised if it started to stretch the frame, and wreck the gun.

a rifle powder is slower than a shotgun powder, and steel IMO seems to stand up better to slower stresses than quicker stresses, but the elastic limits are stressed more with the longer dwell time, and that is where the danger lay.

I dunno what you're using for pressure data, but the 445SM is incorrect. Here are the ball park breech thrust estimates for the chamberings mentioned.

445 Supermag 6603lbs @ 40611psi (not the obsolete CUP value so we're use the same criteria for comparison)
30-06 10410lbs @ 60kpsi
12ga 3½" 7702 @ 14kpsi
22-250 11277 @ 65kpsi

There's no steel in a ductile cast iron frame. 

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I googled 445supermag saami chamber pressure psi

then I compared about 5 sources....  60,000 lbs seems to be what the cartridge was designed around, and I used the 0.457 base diameter.

I guess I misspoke using the word 'steel', when meaning metal

but my point was, the 357Max will not overstress an SB1 frame.

the 4D chart on rechambering lists the 445SM under the 44mag with on warnings, so I would think many who ream them are not doing research as some on here would.
Seeing the chart, and buying a NEW rifle, one would not consider the difference.
Also, isn't a TC Contender a weaker action than a Handi in any form?


quick:  in my internet travels, I have seen posts about fellows getting a 44mag brand new (and they are SB1 frames) and immediately discussing/reaming to 445SM.   

not once have I heard anyone give a warning about the pressure issue.

and if your numbers are correct, then a 445SM on an SB1 would be of no concern either.

[quickdtoo]

Because the 445SM is a wildcat and has no SAAMI MAP, it's not advised for use on an SB1 frame here, I've never recommended it unless only published start to midlevel data is used, have always recommended an SB2 frame be used. The Contender frame is stronger than an SB1, SB2 is between a Contender(see TC's chambering list) and an Encore in strength. The 445SM MAP I used for comparison is listed in Quickload software since it's in PSI as are all of the other SAAMI MAPs I made comparisons to so an apples to apples comparison is made. The 445SM on an SB1 frame topic has been discussed many times over the years.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,178694.msg1098857403.html#msg1098857403

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,255700.msg1099505071.html#msg1099505071

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,254218.msg1099493002.html#msg1099493002

[tomtomz]

445 Supermag 6603lbs @ 40611psi (not the obsolete CUP value so we're use the same criteria for comparison)
30-06 10410lbs @ 60kpsi
12ga 3½" 7702 @ 14kpsi
22-250 11277 @ 65kpsi

There's no steel in a ductile cast iron frame. 

Tim said it all. Having studied metallurgy, I can say with confidence that an amorphous Iron
casting has little or no grain, and hence little or no resistance to fracture. Likely
the cast frames were annealed and possibly alloyed, and will stand up to rated values.