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Offline craigster

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Another 1871 38-55 question
« on: October 14, 2012, 11:54:03 AM »
It may have already been answered, but what is explanation/reason  for the large bore and undersized chamber found in some of these rifles? And why are they no longer chambered in 38-55?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 12:01:11 PM »
They were built to SAAMI specs which are ancient which are made for soft lead bullets, either paper patched or hollow base.  ::) They were discontinued for the same reason many other offerings were discontinued, lack of sales.

Tim

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/38-55%20Winchester.pdf
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 03:58:33 AM »
The 38-55 cartridge pre-dated SAAMI by 'a long shot'. The various manufacturers had their own chamber reamers and the standard SAAMI picked turned out to be, well, wrong. That may be updated by now, as about the last 6mo. (by my est.) of H&R 38-55 production came with the chamber neck appropriate for the barrel groove dimension. It is almost too easy to get a 4-D reamer to clean the neck out a few thou' and Fred has some different diameters to choose from. You can fine tune your bullet dia. of choice, brand of brass (thus neck wall thickness) and clearance to your spec. that way.
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Offline shinjin

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 04:36:26 AM »
Because the 38-55 chambering seems to drive the owner insane while it defies his every attempt to make it shoot a tight group!
 
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Offline petemi

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2012, 12:23:10 PM »
Quote from: shinjin on October 15, 2012, 04:36:26 AM
Because the 38-55 chambering seems to drive the owner insane while it defies his every attempt to make it shoot a tight group!

Mine is a shooter, but I can't take any credit for it.  Tim came up with the barrel, bullet and load ;) ;)

Pete

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Offline eskimo36

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 01:09:18 AM »
Mine is a great gun.  It will shoot .380 lead at plinking speeds into small groups and .379 jacketed bullets at 375 Winchester speeds.  Not many animals in North America I would not hunt with my 38-55.  It's a very versatile cartridge.
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 03:31:26 AM »
Quote from: shinjin on October 15, 2012, 04:36:26 AM
Because the 38-55 chambering seems to drive the owner insane while it defies his every attempt to make it shoot a tight group!

That don't seem right.   ???
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2012, 03:37:26 AM »
Just another cartridge thats been around for what, over 120yrs, thats no good.......... ;)
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Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2012, 03:47:31 AM »
Quote from: gcrank1 on October 17, 2012, 03:37:26 AM
Just another cartridge thats been around for what, over 120yrs, thats no good.......... ;)

 ;D ;D ;D
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Offline shinjin

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 10:29:49 AM »
Oh I love it but it is giving me more fits than my first wife!
 
It should be the ideal West Texas Deer load if I can get it to shoot a reasonable group. All my other Handi's shoot amazing tight groups, as good as many of the Rem 700's we use but this 38-55 just won't find a bullet it likes and I have  tried .375, .378 and .379. About to try .381's.
 
Besides it will upset my hunting buddies to see me with a d****ed crack barrel outshooting them!
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Offline cheatermk3

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 12:42:37 PM »
Quote from: eskimo36 on October 17, 2012, 01:09:18 AM
Mine is a great gun.  It will shoot .380 lead at plinking speeds into small groups and .379 jacketed bullets at 375 Winchester speeds.  Not many animals in North America I would not hunt with my 38-55.  It's a very versatile cartridge.
What 379 jacketed bullet are you talking about?
 
I'd like to try it in mine.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 01:57:02 PM »
Shinjin, are you full length resizing? If so those dies are probably sqeezin' the neck down to hold something like .375 dia. bullets. Many diesets undersize that way to hold jacketed bullets, and everybody knows, they didnt have such back in them good ol' days; its a lead bullet gun. You press a proper dia. softish lead (say 50/50 soft lead to wheelweights) into that under size and it is going to be undersize for the bore. I use fully fireformed to my chamber brass and the .380-.3805 bullets as cast from a cheap Lee mould fit good in the neck but a bit too tight in my rifle's factory throat. I fine tune the overall neck dia. with my fine dressing file to thin the brass up a tad (its only about .001 in case neck thickness to get me .002 in OA Dia. reduction). Someday I'll rent a reamer from 4-D and do my two and a friends and be done with it. Even so, it shoots better than me offhand and at distance they ain't awanderin' all over. If I pick a cornstalk to aim at way on out there next door (way farther than I'd shoot at a deer) they all drop in the same place, though well low.
Hope this helps.
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Offline rbertalotto

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 02:25:39 PM »
Copy of a thread I posted on the ASSRA Single Shot Forum........

First I'd like to thank the folks that sent me bullets to test. No fewer than four folks on this forum and a couple from Cast Bullets send samples to try. I'll say it again, shooters are some of the nicest folks you'll ever meet!



 So I cast a bunch of Lee bullets out of 20-1 Alloy. They dropped at .380-3805. I sized them to .379 (as that is the only sizing die I have for my Star Lubrisizer until Chris from Lathesmith gets me my .381. And I need to order a custom die at .381.

 I lubed them with SPG lube.

 Shooting in a hurricane at 50 yards I turned in a number of GREAT five shot groups. Here is a representative example.



I also loaded up a few bullets that were donated to the cause. Here is what they turned in! These were .381 and simply shot great. This is why I decided to move to .381

(Six Shot Group)

But the strange part of this whole episode is the fact that the "store bought" bullets, cast with the same Lee mold I'm using and measuring .379, all tumbled. Yet my .379 bullets were not tumbling and were extremely accurate.......Huh?

I also shot some "Cash" bullets at 100 yards. I was using a large post in the Lyman 17 front sight. It would have been better with a circle front sight.
This is a five shot group! Talk about two bullets in the same hole!



On Friday I picked up a new Winchester Model 94 (continued next thread)
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Offline rbertalotto

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2012, 02:27:22 PM »
Sporter in 38-55. This rifle will not chamber anything over .379 and the brass must be full length sized. But it is also shooting excellent groups with the same 9g Unique load.

50 Yards, Tang rear sight, Lyman 17 front, circle insert.  Three shot group.



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Offline rbertalotto

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2012, 02:28:38 PM »
Back to the range today..........I bought a used #378674 Lyman mold for 335g / .380 bullets. I cast up a few last night out of 20-1 alloy. 9 grains of Unique.........

Out of the Lyman Ideal rifle they made the strangest noise as they tumbled to the 200 yard target. Couldn't hit a 24" square target. At 50 yards they were shooting 18" groups and hitting the paper perfectly sideways!

I tried them in my new Winchester Model 94 / 38-55  and they shot great. But they were so long they will not feed from the magazine and you can't eject a loaded round. No good!

The LEE .380 bullets shot fantastic over 9g Unique with SPG lube and CCI Large Rifle primers.

Both rifles were shooting 4-5" , five shot groups out at 200 yds in the wind. Very impressed with this performance.

I was going to order a custom mold at .381, but with performance like this, I'm not sure I'm capable of shooting any better.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2012, 03:34:11 PM »
Nice post!
That 335gr'er is likely just too long for the twist, and when that happens you usually cant pick up enough extra velo to stabilize without overpressure loads. For your Winny you may be able to cut some brass back to get an OAL to crimp to the groove, or if they dont compress in maybe just seat deep with a mild crimp where-ever.
Im probably going to get a 'custom' Lee push through size die rather than one for my Lyman 450 (I'll still use it for sizes I have or can find at gun shows), but until then the as cast Lee is doing fine.
BTW, did you mic those commercial casts that tumbled compared to you own casts? I do not trust what boxes say anymore.
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Offline rbertalotto

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2012, 11:37:22 PM »
Yes, I measured all bullets. I'm a bit of a nut about measuring stuff.... ;D

The store bought bullets measured as posted on the box. I don't have a hardness tester, but my "pocket knife hardness test" appears that the store bullets were much harder than my 20-1 bullets.

It's all about the weird rifling in the Lyman rifle. It isn't sharp like Ballard rifling, but more rounded like a Glock. Very, very shallow lands and grooves.

But with the Lee bullets I'm casting and sizing it is shooting great. So I will leave well enough alone for now.
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Offline PineyCreek22

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2012, 02:38:10 PM »
Not that it has anything to do with the discussion here but I was curious which receiver H&R built these 38-55's on when they were marketing them.  I have 2 of my monoblocks almost done.  The first is going to be a .357 mag. carbine and I was thinking 38-55 for the second.  Piney Creek
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2012, 06:48:16 PM »
Quote from: PineyCreek22 on October 21, 2012, 02:38:10 PM
Not that it has anything to do with the discussion here but I was curious which receiver H&R built these 38-55's on when they were marketing them.

SB2 rifle frame.

Tim
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Offline PineyCreek22

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2012, 07:05:33 PM »
Thanks Tim ;)  Piney Creek
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2012, 04:19:19 AM »
If you do put that barrel on one of your stubs you'll need to consider which projectiles you want to use and their diameters before choosing a bore/groove dimension and the appropriate chamber reamer; ie, is it going to be a traditional lead bullet shooter or a hunting upgrade to 375 Win.
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Offline TopperT

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Re: Another 1871 38-55 question
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 01:51:07 PM »
Open the chamber and shoot .381 heads and you will be amazed at just how accurate the rifle is.  Under .380 they seem to rattle around resulting in poor accuracy, at least they seemed to, to me.
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