45-70 reloading, what did I do wrong?

[Will52100]

So far my reloading experiance has been with remington brass(fired about 100 rounds of smokless new ammo, then reloaded with black)

I am useing a Lyman 310, 500 grain round nose, and enough powder that under compression seats the bullit with a hard crimp at the very edge of the lube grove.  Works great with Remington once fired/and a couple that were unloaded and reloaded with black.

I got some virgin brass, think it was marked W W on the head, when I tried the same steps that worked fine with remington the crimp belled just behind the case mouth and wouldn't chamber.(I also switched to postal flat noses in the same wieght.  I'm not sure but the new brass looks a little thinner(haven't miked it yet) and is a lot softer than even the unfired Remingtons.

So what I did is last night I loaded 50 rounds as usual, but with no crimp, just shoved the bullet in by hand till it compated the powder a little.  Will these be safe to fire, and how crapy will acuracy be?  Only plan on using for under a 100 yards for the last few days of deer season round here.  Will I be able to load them normaly after fire forming them?  Wasn't necicary with Reminton brass.

For long range I am going to have go back with remington?

I am useing 3F Goex and a vegitable fiber over powder wad.  The bullets are SPG lube and cast by Montana presion swaging.

I have no desire to get real heavy into reloading, don't realy have space or time, love shooting my uberti highwall, but want to keep loading as simple as posible while still shooting holy black.

Any and all thoughts apreciated.

Thanks,

Will

[Voyageur]

You didn't do anything wrong pal...not all brass is created equall.  The difference between Remington and Winchester (and the difference from lot to lot) can be astonishing sometimes.

Case length seems to be your problem and that requires trimming when you are trying to put in a specific hard crimp.  Case capacity due to case wall thickness and base thickness can also rear it's ugly head.

Most serious guys go with one brand (sometimes even lot) and stick with it.  The compression you were developing seating the bullets orginally will not be as uniform with hand seating.  Certainly you can shoot the cartridges...but accuracy?  You'll just have to try it and find out.

Go with one brand or start trimming your cases to the same OAL.

Voyageur

[Will52100]

Thanks, I was thinking about maybe these needed triming, think after I fire these I'll stick with Remingtons.  Love to shoot, hate to reload!

[The Shrink]

Voyager

Don't worry about a crimp with a 500 gr bullet unless the bullet falls out of the case.  The weight of the bullet provides enough inertia for complete combustion.  Some of my most accurate 45-70 in an original Springfield were thumb seated with just enough crimp to keep them in.  The bullet would rotate in the case.  

It's the 405 gr. bullet that requires a substantial crimp for complete combustion.  

Sorry, as long as you are shooting black you almost have to reload.  However, I don't size my cases, only clean and polish, prime and load.  Powder is Goex, compressed on my drill press .30", card wad, and thumb seated bullet.  It's easy and uses little equpment.  I do use a bullet seat die to provide what little crimp I use.  

Wayne the Shrink

[Will52100]

Thanks Shrink, the only thing I do to the cases is, neck size and decap, bell the mouth slightly, and prime.  Normaly I seat the bullet with a hard crimp, seems to get a little hotter out the barrel than a light crimp.  I'll know more when I shoot these(I looked again, there Winchester brass) with out the crimp, if I can find the time that is!

[Voyageur]

Voyager
Don't worry about a crimp with a 500 gr bullet unless the bullet falls out of the case.  The weight of the bullet provides enough inertia for complete combustion.  Some of my most accurate 45-70 in an original Springfield were thumb seated with just enough crimp to keep them in.  The bullet would rotate in the case.   Wayne the Shrink

The reason I advise new reloaders to crimp is to keep the bullet in place prior to shooting.  The following is from Venturino's & Garbe's book Reloading Primer and is information I take to heart.

"A question often asked is, "How much black powder should I load?"  Unlike smokeless propellants the exact amount of black powder loaded is of no consequence.  The point is to fill up the case to the base of the bullet.  Case capacity varies by brand, and bullet seating depth is a variable, so trying to give exact charge amounts as advice is meaningless.  The correct procedure is to drop-tube in an amount of black powder that will bring the powder level high enough, including the .030" card wad, so that the base of the bullet compresses it at least one sixteenth of an inch.  There should never be any air space left between the base of the bullet and the powder because a ringed chamber could result.  Always touch the bullet's base to the card wad.  Remember, the number of grains of black powder your case will hold considering the bullet seating depth is the correct amount.  Unlike smokeless powder you cannot put in too much black powder.  This is also why shooters should not pick a cartridge with more case capacity than they acturally need because trying to load down a black powder cartridge is not feasible.  Some shooters have done it using cork wads or even cornmeal to take up the excess space, but we feel that the absolute best black powder results come when a case full of powder is used."

After 30+ years of shooting black powder I can only say that I agree with these words.  My personal loads now are all compressed loads with a 10% smokeless (4759) charge in the bottom of the case. I achieve 1" groups with iron sights and do not have to clean between shots as much.  Keeping the bullet seated down on the powder with the same tension is very important.  I, myself, prefer to taper crimp but Mike & Steve prefer to use undersized expander balls.  Either way there is compression as well as tension.

Voyageur

[Cottonwood]

The most important factor in loading with BP is Consistancy.

Consistancy is the key.

[horsefly]

Will52100

     If you want to shoot loose bullets, just make sure that the front driving band of the bullet hits the rifling.  This makes sure that there is no space between the bullet and the wad.

     I shoot loose bullets all the time and have excellent results with them.  I make the rifling engrave the front band about 0.030.

     Like any other load component (yes, bullet tension is a component), every thing has to work together.  Your result will most likely depend on how the load is developed than any single factor.

Y'all be good.

horsefly

[howdy doody]

The most important factor in loading with BP is Consistancy.

Consistancy is the key.

That says a lot and even though BP is always measured by volume, I have had my best results measureing my loads short and weighing them one by one and trickling to make my desired weight. Maybe all powders aren't suitable to be weighed, but both the ones I use are and my accuracy is very, very good. Maybe I should say my consistency is very good.
I will go along with 99.9% of the folks and say BP should be measured by volume, but I am in my own little world on this.  :grin:

[Will52100]

Thanks guys, after fire forming these I think I'm going to order a case trimmer and and get a little more into reloading.  I still want to keep it simple, but if I'm going to shoot further than a couple hundred yards I need a little more consistancy.

I have a lyman 55 powder measure on order just to speed up powder measure, my old methoud is a cut down 45-70 case with a brass rod soldered to it as a dipper.  I also have a scale on order to double check my powder charge.

I do like the simplicity of just dipping the powder and poring into the case and using the lyman 310 to do all the work.  Should work great for 44 and 45 pistol ammo though, and it let me get started playing with loads.  Still not a lot of fun sitting for a couple of hours building loads, but got to do it to shoot!