Author Topic: rimmed cartridge headspace problem/question (Read 1244 times)

rdlange · « **on:** March 21, 2011, 05:27:47 PM »

I have this altered 30-30 AI barrel I got used. Based on 'revbc' maxi post baout rim headspace depth I thought to check my barrel. The reamed area of the breech is noticeably deeper than the case rim; third of a rim thickness or so. I've already had to square the lug recess and shim it .007 to fit square and tight, and now this new 'challenge'.

I could file off the face of the breech, set it back and shim it even more, but that would be a seriously thick shim, maybe too much.

Any advise folks? I'm not a welder and only have this one breech.

Sure am learning alot about Handi smithing though!

Be Well...

billy_56081 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 21, 2011, 05:41:39 PM »

You should be able to headspace a 30 30 AI on the shoulder.

rdlange · « **Reply #2 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:06:05 PM »

It's a rimmed cartridge. It should headspace on the rim. If it doesn't how can I resize the case to spec when I reload and I won't know if my cases are right until I fire them. And the case will probably stretch too much and may separate after one firing.

But, it WILL headspace to the shoulder when I fireform so maybe that will be OK. We'll see.

A bit frustrated now and thinking I probably can't fireform std 30-30 ammo in it without primer extrusion or case separation. Just about ready to buy a new 30-30 Handi down the street and trash this barrel as a lesson learned. Then I'll be looking for an AI reamer somewhere... another bunch of bucks, because I've got more invested in AI stuff almost than the gun. I guess that's what comes with a wildcat caliber.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:20:10 PM »

I've used really thick shims before, .026" stainless on a 270 Win, no problem.

You can form a false shoulder by necking up to .035" or so, then run it thru a 30-30 Imp FL die to push the shoulder back just enough to eliminate the excess headspace, then fireform, that's how I do my 30-30AI from 375Win brass, only it's already bigger, so there's not much change when it fireforms.

Tim

rdlange · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:49:14 PM »

Thank you gentlemen. I apologize for sounding irate. Your FAQs do detail using 375 brass which I have some but haven't tried doing. I have over 200 AI brass I got with the barrel and I'm now concerned they'll be too short as is with the excessive headspace. I'll load to 30-30 std powder weight and see if they stretch. I sure am finding that getting this gun shooting isn't just drop in barrel and shoot. All this fiddling is learning me good. Especially with your appreciated help.

Be Well all...

keith44 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:49:57 PM »

On a much smaller scale the .22 K-Hornet of mine fireforms the brass just fine, with some noticable primer bulges (no actual holes found to date). After that I just neck size and go

Antietamgw · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2011, 07:08:50 PM »

If your existing brass seems OK, you might just seat the bullet hard into the lands - a little feel when you close the action. Starting loads should be fine for this and the shoulder should end up where it belongs. Necking the brass up to 35 cal and then relocating the shoulder with the sizing die really isn't much trouble. I believe I'd do both with the next fireforming load after checking your brass internally for a thinned area above the web. A paperclip with the end bent and sharpened a bit works well. One particular SMLE taught me all I wanted to know about head separations. Resizing factory loads fired in that chamber would result in head separations in the sizing die. No fun at all... If all else fails, the barrel would be a good candidate for a liner. I've used a couple TJ's and they have been shooters.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2011, 07:17:52 PM »

Seating bullets long into the lands works fine too, I did that with 50 rounds in my 280 "Improved-Improved" Ultra using 280 start loads as recommended in the Nosler manual, it worked fine, all you have to do is gradually adjust the seating die a little at a time to seat the bullet a little bit deeper until you get the action closed.

FWIW, I fireformed 5 factory Rem loads in my 30-30 AI Handi, 3 split at the shoulder, just bad brass from what others have said about it.

Tim

bilmac · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2011, 07:19:14 PM »

Think that's what I would do too, seat your bullets so they tough the lands and hold your case back against the primer blow. But, I think I would use a cast bullet and a pop gun load like 4 gr of red dot to form the case a little more gently. Then from then on treat them as if they are rimless cases.

Antietamgw · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2011, 02:44:40 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on March 21, 2011, 07:17:52 PM

FWIW, I fireformed 5 factory Rem loads in my 30-30 AI Handi, 3 split at the shoulder, just bad brass from what others have said about it.

Tim

That stinks. Hopefully it will be rare. Interchangeability with standard and better brass life are my main reasons for considering the A.I. The standard chamber has all the capacity I generally need and I have others if more is needed. I want to rechamber a Handi to A.I. and if I like it, maybe rechamber all the .30-30's. I'll be working mostly with once fired brass. Maybe I'll anneal some before fireforming and compare. I bought dies at a show Saturday. Guess it's time for a reamer.

Goatwhiskers · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2011, 03:29:08 AM »

An alternative to shoulder headspacing is a trick I used back in the day on shotguns, esp single shots that had developed excessive headspace. Silver solder a "washer" into the rim groove, then recut the groove to proper depth. Works every time. Goatwhiskers

Dead doc · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2011, 06:23:12 AM »

I Just fire formed 61 previoulsy relaoded Remington Brass and 20 factory brass in my H&R 3030AI 2 cases split at the neck ( as in the photo above ) out of those cases and im sure the ones that split had been reloaded at least twice since the factory loading and firing . Fire formed 58 factory Remingtons , 10 Winchester factory , and 10 PMC factory prior to this in the gun and have no cases split SO 2 aint bad from all that I have 64 reloads( 3030 Brass) to fire form yet and 20 factory Then Ill be set for brass If i Lose a few there IM happy .
By the way Trade Count I LOVE that avatar Never would have thought of that one

cjrjck · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2011, 01:33:24 PM »

Could you pick up a cheap Topper receiver? Almost no way that the barrel would need shimmed. Probably have to take some off the lug.

revbc · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2011, 02:39:47 PM »

If I was were you are at, I would carefully file the barrel face flat within .001-.002 headspace. Fit the correct tight shim and be happy with it.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2011, 03:10:42 PM »

I dont (or ever had) any AI's, but, it seems to me that since that rechamber blows out case shoulders anyway you wont have anything else happening that isnt going to happen in a regular fire-forming to it.
Just make some of that plentiful brass fit your chamber and give it a go.
Yeah, it aint right, and if it was an expensive custom barrel I would send it back, but that isnt the case here.

Dead doc · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2011, 05:07:10 AM »

ON mine the only sypmtom I had was on REMINGTON brass I was getting the primer pushed out a bit ( not much ) on fire forming Measured the rims on the different cases and found WInchester to be the thickest rims then Federal then Remington the Rim thickness seems to do the trick on The H&R AI locks up the barrel closer and no Primer movement IM using WInchester Brass exclusively now

Antietamgw · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2011, 03:57:54 PM »

Quote from: cjrjck on March 22, 2011, 01:33:24 PM

Could you pick up a cheap Topper receiver? Almost no way that the barrel would need shimmed. Probably have to take some off the lug.

Do the older Topper receivers tend to be shorter from hinge pin to breech face? Educate me! Thanks

cjrjck · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2011, 04:21:01 PM »

Quote from: Antietamgw on March 23, 2011, 03:57:54 PM

Quote from: cjrjck on March 22, 2011, 01:33:24 PM
Could you pick up a cheap Topper receiver? Almost no way that the barrel would need shimmed. Probably have to take some off the lug.

Do the older Topper receivers tend to be shorter from hinge pin to breech face? Educate me! Thanks

Would ask those with more experience with Topper barrels and receivers to chime in but my two barrels were very short. They are not from the same receiver. They fit a topper receiver I have and only my shortest sb2 receiver.

carbineman · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2011, 04:05:02 AM »

In my experiences the older Topper receivers that the 30-30 Topper barrels fit on are the same for the most part as the sb1 receivers of today in length from breech face to lug pivot pin.

sportclay · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2011, 05:13:53 AM »

I shoot several wildcats based on the 30-30 case and head space all on the shoulder.

I start with virgin brass (usually anneal the necks)and in the case of the 30 BRM (very similar to your 30-30 AI)I expand the neck with a .32 cal. sizer. then run the case into the proper sizing die (in your case, the 30-30- AI ) just enough to create a "false" shoulder that will allow a 'crush' fit. This will prevent the case from being driven forward into the chamber by the firing pin strike. (this works better than the bullet method alone) I fireform all cases using the cream of wheat(corn meal) method. Saves wear and tear on the barrel and is a whole bunch less expensive than using up bullets. I use 8gr of unique covered by a thin layer/wad of tissue paper (to keep the powder from mixing with the cream of wheat) and then fill the case with COW or CM just into the neck and then tightly fit a wad of paper towel so it fills the rest of the case neck to the top. Pack it tight with a small dowel. If you have set the dies correctly and have a 'crush' fit, the brass will blow out radially rather than stretch forward. I use a chamber brush between firing to remove any residue that might collect at the neck. Clean the rifle afterward. A word of caution, use the COW fireform loads the same day you load them. If allowed to sit around the COW can absorb moisture and "set up" this is not good. If you a more traditional method of fireforming you can still use the neck expansion and crush fit in conjunction with the seating the bullet out to the lands to help center the case in the chamber.

The firing will form the shoulder to the datum of the shoulder but may not form the crisp line on the shoulder. You might have to play with the charge to obtain the results you want. I have found Hornady and Win brass (at least recent batches) have been the most uniform and slightly soft when new. This has worked for me for over 40 years for fireforming. I load some of my 30 BRM over 20 times, re-annealing necks every 5 firings. The AI and other similar rimmed wildcats were never designed to be headspaced on the rim. The rim is there to provide positive extraction.

A friend has an NEF and had a similar problem and the first thing to determine was how much barrel gap there was. This gap combined with the chamber is the head space. The case when sized should not have more than .001"-.003" gap to the breech face. Your sized case determines this not the fired case. A feeler gage placed between the chambered case and the breach when closed should be about .0005"-.003". Some barrels may not have a barrel gap, in this case the the head should be flush with the breach face of the barrel. A small gap is good,.0005"-.003"