Handi Firing Pin Issue (Update)

[digs68]

Hello all!
I've been trying zero my scope on my .308 and have been having some issues. I had been using a box of Remington Core-lokt 150 grain bullets, which I've alwzys had great success with in the past.
Being a new (new to me anyway) rifle, I didn't know what to expect. I couldn't get a group any better than the size of a paper plate, and had a couple rounds misfire. I spoke with a gunsmith friend of mine who said I may have gotten a bad box of shells.
After reading several posts here from folks having good results with the Winchester Super X brand, I purchased a couple boxes & prepared to give it another go.
I inserted the first round, took careful aim and "CLICK"!! After waiting a bit, I removed the round, inserted another, and had the same results. At this point, I called my smith friend again and he asked to see the rifle.
I took him the rifle and all of the fired and misfired rounds.
He immediately noticed that the pin marks, while adequately deep, were quite a bit off-center of the primers.
He told me that was most likely the problem with the misfires, and the poor round placement of the Remington shells as well. He said my best bet would be to send it in to H & R since it is most likely a manufacturing defect of some sort.
My question is this; Have any of you seen this issue? Is there a fix for it other than sending it in to H & R? Also, how is H & R when it comes to issues like this? Will I have to pay for it, or will they fix it, no charge, even though I'm not the original owner. I'm sure, by the way, that the original owner was well aware of this problem when he sold me the gun, which was pretty much new.
Any info, answers, experiences, etc. would help me greatly.
Thanks in advance!
Chris

[DEER 24/7]

ya i am having the same troubles chris i woul like to know the answer myself to all these questions

[bilmac]

I had the same problems with a 243. I fixed it by shimming the hinge pin and then reseating the locking latch, but this is a pretty technical operation. There is plenty of information on this thread about how to go about it if you are a pretty good tinkerer.

[montveil]

Send it back to get fixed by the guys that made the rifle.
If it is a manufacturing defect, insist it be repaired/replaced at no charge. You will have to pick up shipping and insurance one way

[necchi]

These all went bang,,



Handloads, fully seated, Rem 91/2 primer. Point is many handis don't hit center. You may have trouble beyond what I describe,, but here's two thing I learned;

* The handi needs to be closed with authority! A swift, firm motion ment to close the action,,

* The trigger needs to be pulled fully rear and HELD back during the firing sequence, this was the tough one for me,,I've been use too a light target triggers, and some bolts that needed just a touch to set it off, the handi took some time to re-learn trigger control.

I'm sure there is a link in the FAQ's about "Fail to fire" issues, maybe you can find something in there you can do yourself and save the time issues of shipping, there are now "Repair Centers" around the country, a call will tell you if one is near

[digs68]

I followed all the suggestions while firing the .308. Snapped shut with authority, trigger fully engaged, etc. The pin is just too far off center.
I can post some pics I suppose.
I'm planning on calling in the morning. Do I call one of the repair centers, or the main office?

[sabbatus]

i would recommend reading the handi basics 101 section on this forum,  following those go to the range and have another go at it.  If you still have issues talk to the guys here. a wealth of knowledge frequents this site.  As none of my handi rifles hit the center of the primer i doubt that is your issue.  not "following through" with the trigger is a big culprit of misfires.  Handis are a world of their own in the vast universe of firearms.

[digs68]

I've read the basics 101 a dozen times before I ever fired the rifle. It just doesn't shoot. I'm guessing a headspace issue is the problem. I'll most likely send it to H&R & let them fiddle with it. I'd just as soon not have a whole box of shells with dented primers. Kinda makes me nervous.
I took it apart today (not the action. I'm no gunsmith, and I'd as soon not ruin the gun or void any warranty.) and checked out everything I could see with a 10X lighted loupe. It all looks clean to me and functioning properly.
I appreciate the advise. I was just hoping someone had similar experiences, and was more interested in how H&R is to deal with.
Thanks!

[quickdtoo]

I've had lots of misfires due to off center pin strikes on my 260 Rem and 6x45 Handis, being rebored barrels I don't have the luxury of returning them to H&R, but I handload and solved the problem by changing to primers that are less particular about off center strikes, Fed 210 seem to do the trick in the 260 and Rem 7½ in the 6x45, since I switched I haven't had a misfire. So one alternative is to switch ammo, the Rem ammo itself may be suspect, it's been reported numerous times as being faulty. But that doesn't solve the real problem, sending it to H&R to have it fixed is the best solution on a factory rifle, call em at their toll free number, (866)776-9292 and make arrangements to have it returned, ask them to send a return shipping label to cover shipping, they may ask you to send the Rem ammo to their ammo return facility as well. 

Tim

http://remington.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/104/kw/defective%20ammunition/r_id/166

[digs68]

I spoke with the folks at H&R today & found out there is an issue with misfiring rifles, and there is a free upgrade to correct the problem.
From what I was told, the issue stems from the transfer bar not contacting the firing pin fully or squarely, causing either off-center pin strikes, misfires, or both. Something to the effect that the transfer bar drops slightly even with proper trigger-pull and follow-through, which causes it to strike low on the firing pin plunger.
The fix has something to do with (I think, from what I gleaned from the conversation) a larger or longer transfer bar, and maybe a slower drop rate? Not completely sure, but at any rate the repair guy said they've done a bunch of them already and it works great. I asked if there would be test-firing to be sure before it was sent back to me, and he said "Definitely!!".
I'm shipping my gun in the morning.
Just thought you folks might want to know this if you're having the same issue.
Chris

[quickdtoo]

Thanks for the update, but changing the transfer bar won't change the firing pin strike location, that's fixed on the standing breech, a new barrel would have to be refitted to the frame to change that since the underlug itself determines how it fits.

Tim

[digs68]

I guess I don't follow you. From what they were saying, it gave me the impression that the misalignment of the transfer bar could cause the firing pin to cant one way or the other, which would cause the off-center strikes. Yes, there is the possibility that the breech is misaligned or the head spacing is off.
The service guy said they've done a whole bunch of these upgrades and it does correct the problem. I'm sure they will evaluate the alignment of the pin, and the success rate of the rifle to discharge consistently.
Whatever the upgrade does, I'm remaining optimistic that it will cure my rifle and get me back off the "re-assessing" the idea of keeping it or ever buying another.
I'll wait to get it back and report on how it has or hasn't improved it. I think they should do away altogether with the transfer bar and go with a simpler "click-on/click-off" safety like the one on my revelation 30-30. It just slides a bar in between the hammer and firing pin, blocking the hammer from the pin until it is clicked to fire, which slides the safety bar out of the way.
I do thank you, Tim.
Your knowledge goes way beyond mine, and I have a hard time following you sometimes. I don't mind altering the stock/forearm, etc. but anything that may adversely affect the operation of the rifle I'll leave to the professionals.
Chris

[quickdtoo]

If you were familiar with an SB1 or SB2 frame, you'd realize what you think they said isn't possible, even a longer firing pin will only make a deeper strike, but still off center.  You'll learn that what Customer Support tells customers and what Ilion actually does isn't always the same thing, Madison has a reputation for not always giving good information, they almost always provide good service in the end tho.  

Tim

[digs68]

This was the actual repair tech at Mann & Son out of Illinois. Maybe I didn't catch everything he said clearly, but at any rate, he said the issue would be fixed. I'll wait to find out.
I know what you are trying to say. A firing pin can only go where it can go. Tolerances wouldn't allow a deviation from it's path if struck wrong. Maybe I have a dual issue. I made sure to ask them to double-check everything else, and of course call if there would be any possible work needed that's not covered by warranty so I don't break the bank on repairs. If that were the case, It would make a good boat anchor, I suppose. 

[quickdtoo]

The two barrels that have with high pin strikes have must have underlugs that are too short, or barrels that are a smidge undersize at the chamber swell, or the pivot was cut too high or the bore was off center to begin with, or the frames were made wrong, or a combination of issues that results with the bore lower that is should be. One is a new Ilion made complete rifle and the other a 2006 framed parts rifle, dunno when the barrel was made on it.  My 444 Marlin has a noticeably off center pins strike, I don't remember if it's high tho, but have never had a problem with it, I've only used Rem 9½ primers in it, but the factory also tested it with three factory loads with no problems, it was one of the first 444 Marlin barrels they made in 2007 when it was reintroduced with the 1:20" twist.

Tim

[digs68]

I mailed the gun USPS snail-mail last Tuesday. Postal worker said it would be there by Friday. I figured it would be a couple weeks before I got it back.
Imagine my surprise when I had a UPS delivery notification stuck on my window last night. Only a week since I shipped it!!
I took the afternoon off so I could be here to sign when they returned. I got the gun & the notes said, "Updated & tested".
I haven't had a chance to fire it yet, but looking over the action, it does appear that the transfer bar rises a bit higher, and stays in place much better when the trigger is depressed, even when a light (but steady) pull is made.
My fingers are crossed that it fires consistently, and I'm going to try a couple of the tricks (O-ring, etc) to see if accuracy is improved.
Wish me luck! I'll keep you all updated when I get her on the bench.
Once again, the repair folks were very pleasant to work with.

[tacklebury]

Cool!  Nice turn-around time. 

[Dinny]

This was the actual repair tech at Mann & Son out of Illinois. Maybe I didn't catch everything he said clearly, but at any rate, he said the issue would be fixed. I'll wait to find out.
I know what you are trying to say. A firing pin can only go where it can go. Tolerances wouldn't allow a deviation from it's path if struck wrong. Maybe I have a dual issue. I made sure to ask them to double-check everything else, and of course call if there would be any possible work needed that's not covered by warranty so I don't break the bank on repairs. If that were the case, It would make a good boat anchor, I suppose.  

I would exercise some extreme caution when dealing with Mann's. PM me for my personal experiences with John Mann the "gunsmith".

Thanks, Dinny