percieved or real concerns

[williamlayton]

as usual i try to check things out before i rush in--sometimes i misunderstand-i guess i percieve things that are not actually real. anyway, i digress, i have recently been considering a .45 in semi-auto and have read just about every string on this forum. i have a couple of questions to see if i am understanding everything.
1) the 1911 is NOT the invincible weapon i have always thought it to be. if i am understanding correctly, there are some inherient problems with them and some, more than i may want to deal with, amount of problems that, while fixable, ARE going to crop up and cause malfunction. this gun will be a self-defence weapon for carry in an auto-not on my person.
2) i usually prefer to spend more and not have to worry about customizing things myself-has nothing to do with can't do it, it has more to do with i don't like to do it. from reading it seems that a kimber would be the choice. springfield seems to be a black/white issue with folks-either you do or you don't. i generally do not trust anything of the cheapest manf . and would prefer to pay more for quality.
 i would also prefer the heaviest-remember, car gun-model and that comes back to the kinber. the kimber seems to be the most preferred at the two shops i tend to deal with the most here in houston. both carry wide range of makes.
so how am i doing in my thoughts and perceptions. all openions and soapbox oratory are appreciated.
blessings

[His lordship.]

I was strongly considering a 1911 clone myself.  The facts came pouring in and I went with a CZ 75 double action semi-auto pistol in .40 S & W instead.  It seems that the 1911 design needs to have alot of modifications done to it to really tune it properly, and in all fairness it is a very old gun, old tech, like horse and buggy.  

The idea that I have to spend $500.00 to $800.00 just to get the basics in modification for performance really bothers me.  I looked at the Springfield GI basic for $400.00 and it seemed tinker toy like, spend $520.00 for the Dan Wesson and get alot more, $800.00 plus for a Kimber, or as I did, spend $450.00 for the CZ and have it right the first time, and with a cartridge offering good knock down without the harsh recoil too!  I was trying to look at the 1911 for a historical gun, but when the comparisons happened, well...

[Mikey]

williamlayton:  Chris D has a good perspective on the concerns you have mentioned but there are other issues involved.  

Basically, the 1911A1 out of the box should take about 200-300 rounds to break in properly.  It is during the break-in period that most folks experience their problems, and we find that most often it is either ammunition or magazine related.  Sometimes the factory springs even need replacement.  The 1911A1 45 Auto was designed to function best with military ball - after you get it broken it properly you can try out anything else in it to see if it functions the way you want but you may have to 'work on it' a bit to get it to feed other than ball ammo reliably.

Truth is, you rarely need more than one with a 45, even if it is ball.  Lots of times you will read that an assailant got shot with something and ran off and died or walked into a hospital for treatment.  You rarely hear of that with a 45.  You may hear that a 45 with ball ammo is a 60-something one shot fight stopper (immediate incapacitation), but you rarely hear that a bad guy took one and kept up the fight.  Sometimes yes, but most often not.

Yes, you can spend a lot of $ and get someone's already smoothed out, properly gunsmithed, extensively tricked out 45 that is ready to fall into your hand, fit properly and work as reliably as a semi-auto should - or, you can get an out of the box pistol and get it to the same point yourself.  Lots of guys 'trick' out their 45s because they shoot them a lot and trick them for comfort and accuracy.  The new Colt 1911, for example, as cited by Gun Tests Magazine, functioned flawlessly right from the box and gave accuracy that makes me want one.  Thats pretty much a plain jane GI 45 and that would fit right into your glove box without a problem.  

Many, many fellas carry plain jane 1911s with ball ammo and never have a problem in any regard.  We usually hear the exceptions.  Some folks have terrible problems with this or that factory rep or customer service person but I have never had that misfortune.  

Yes, there are other pistols and calibers out there that may suffice but if you want a 45, to me it should be a 1911A1.  Most Police agencies count on ammo for 1 shot fight stoppers (it reads terribly in the local anti-gun media that a local Police Officer had to shoot a suspect 3 times with his 45 duty gun) and the LEOs that carry firearms that function with that ammunition need to be assured the dang pistol is gonna work right when they pull the trigger.  Some folks like other brands of pistols - it's an individual and very personal choice - what feels best in your hand and handles best (that means function and reliability) is your best bet.  If you don't need adjustable target sights for bullseye shooting to 50 yds, if you don't need ambidexterous safeties, if you don't need long target triggers or a flat mainspring housing then a standard GI 45 should do fine for you, if you like it and if it feels and functions right for you.  

It is a choice not to be made lightly because your life may well depend on it - that is the reason for choosing the pistol.  You may need to put some 'personal' time into your research efforts to get what works and feels best for you.  Sorry william but there is no magic answer to this one, although I really wish there was.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Savage]

Chris D.
Have to disagree with you on that one pard! The design of the 1911 is sound, it's the execution thereof that is sometimes flawed. As recently as 10 years ago you bought a 40+ year old military contract pistol and put aftermarket sights, a new spring set, and barrel bushing in it, and walla you had a fine fighting pistol!  The only other options available were to purchase a not too well made Colt, or one of the Spanish clones of dubious quality & metalurgy. Most needed work to make them function correctly. Then along came Kimber. For about what you'd pay for a Colt you could get a near flawless example of the 1911. Plus you could get all of the refinements that were previously the realm of custom smiths. Sales went thru the roof! Then Springfield and Dan Wesson, and now Smith & Wesson jumped in with their version of the factory custom 1911. There are numerous other clones available out there as well. Most will function flawlessly right out of the box, and deliver more accuracy that most shooters can hold! The 1911 is arguably the best combat handgun ever made. With all the designs available out there, the 1911 is the platform of choice for a lot of special ops groups , and becoming more so everyday. There is a reason for that, most people find the 1911 to be a natural pointing, stone reliable weapon in an adequate caliber. The CZs, Glocks, H&Ks, and Sigs are good designs, and I own and shoot them as well, but I submit to you; they're no 1911!!
William, In my opinion you can't go wrong with a Kimber. My second choice is a toss up between Dan Wesson and Springfield, with a slight edge going to the DW. For an entry level 1911 I would strongly favor the DW, especially if money is tight. I recently bought an officer's size Charles Daly that has functioned flawlessly and is more accurate than it has a right to be, and all this for under $400. Maybe I'm just lucky!!! If I had to use a handgun to fight with, it'd have to be my Kimber Stainless Target Series I--------Second would be my Glock 21 with hi-caps-------all .45 of course!!
Stay Safe,
Savage

[williamlayton]

there are some very good, well thought out responses here and i appreciate them all. slowly you are changing my first concerns.
mikey
i can appreciate your comment about nothing being magical. totally agree.
one other question---
on one of the post, the statement was made--i think, without going back to check the reference--that s&w made most/many of the parts for the kimber. is this statement true/false? i guess i ask as i kinda like s&w for a lottta reasons--i refuse to get into tha politics of anything--and they are part of tha thinking process.  ps- i'm not saying/calling anyone to task--ie the person who made the post--just checking it out.
thanx fer all the answers.
blessings

[Questor]

Here are my opinions based on your list of issues:

1) the 1911 is NOT the invincible weapon i have always thought it to be. if i am understanding correctly, there are some inherient problems with them and some, more than i may want to deal with, amount of problems that, while fixable, ARE going to crop up and cause malfunction. this gun will be a self-defence weapon for carry in an auto-not on my person.

IT'S ALL RELATIVE. The reality is that the 1911 is not perfect, and that other 45s are less perfect than the 1911.  The Pardini 45, excellent though it may be, is sensitive to ammo, and is not nearly as reliable as the 1911.  For self defense, I consider the 1911 outmoded. There are simply better options, like the Glocks. The 1911 is also very heavy and bulky to carry, and it absolutely requires the right kind of holster to keep the safety from being switched off during normal wear.


2) i usually prefer to spend more and not have to worry about customizing things myself-has nothing to do with can't do it, it has more to do with i don't like to do it. from reading it seems that a kimber would be the choice. springfield seems to be a black/white issue with folks-either you do or you don't. i generally do not trust anything of the cheapest manf . and would prefer to pay more for quality.
i would also prefer the heaviest-remember, car gun-model and that comes back to the kinber. the kimber seems to be the most preferred at the two shops i tend to deal with the most here in houston. both carry wide range of makes.
so how am i doing in my thoughts and perceptions. all openions and soapbox oratory are appreciated.
blessings

GET THE KIMBER IF YOU LIKE IT. The high-end Kimbers shoot about as well as a custom gun and are as reliable.  I bought a Clark custom 1911 and I had to completely disassembe it to clean the crap out of it when I took delivery on this $1750 custom gun. I almost sent it back. And in retrospect, should have.  My Kimber has been flawless since day one and it cost half as much as the Kimber.  The Kimber is cosmetically better also.  Regardless of the gun you get, reliability is a top concern and you need to verify the reliability through shooting. For a while, some Kimbers had magazine problems that affected reliability. My Clark is a low-end Springfield that's been customized. "Customized" means that the metal polisher rubbed off most of the metal stampings and nearly wiped off the serial number in the process.  Going the custom route is an expensive hassle. Clark, and other custom 1911 shops like Rock River, often miss their estimated completion dates by a wide margin.  My Clark was estimated to be done in six weeks. It took six months.

[williamlayton]

thanx questor--good information-food for thought.
blressings

[williamlayton]

what do you boys think about the external/tactical extractor offered by wesson and kimber. seems to be a very good option. also whats yer thoughts on tha dan wesson patriot line.

[Savage]

William,
See my post on "Real or Precieved Problems"------The DW Patriot line gets high marks from me! I think it's a better buy than the Springfield.
Stay Safe,
Savage

[williamlayton]

thanx savage--yes i have read your reply over there. your reply was very encouraging and reenforced the way my thinking is going. you must be a strange guy if'n you are going my way of thinkin.
blessings

[Iowegan]

I'm a retired gunsmith and for 30+ years the 1911 guns were my bread and butter. I have seen the whole spectrum from trash Argentine imports to Colt Gold Cups. The good news is: If you are instructed in the basics, you can repair or upgrade any 1911 very easily. There's not a single part that is not readily available from dozens of sources. The design of the 1911 is very simple and uses fewer parts than almost any other pistol. It was introduced in 1905 and is now pushing 100 years old. For any design to survive that long it must be halfway decent.

Most guns that malfunction are a product of their owner. Bad ammo, tinkering with parts, not cleaned properly, etc. Yes, some guns have defects that make them malfunction, but unlike most other pistols, it’s easy to identify the problem and fix it.

Accuracy issues: Don’t confuse “combat” accuracy with “target” accuracy. 1911’s are designed to shoot 2.5” groups at 25 yds. That’s plenty good for combat shooting. If you want more precise accuracy, match grade barrels and bushings are available that will produce 1” groups. When a 1911 is “tightened up” for target accuracy, you may experience an occasional malfunction. So what? On the range is really doesn’t matter. What does matter is a combat (self defense) gun must function flawlessly. 1911’s will do that.

Clones: There are a lot of 1911 clones out there. Some are very good and some aren’t. Many have parts that are unique to the brand and are not compatible with standard 1911 parts. The frame and slide are not the issue; it’s the internal parts that I’m talking about. Then there’s metallurgy and finish. Most of the cheaper clones have poor metal that wear, break, or look bad. Chas Daly and Norinco come to mind.  You pretty much get what you pay for.

My day job was law enforcement. I carried a Colt Govt Mod for 15 yrs and my last 5 years I carried a Stainless Colt Commander. I put a large number of rounds through these guns. In 20 years, I can count the malfunctions on my hands and they were from magazines that had been dropped repeatably and damaged or defective ammo. What other pistol has the safety features of a 1911 and can be drawn and put into action as fast? The first shot shoots the same as the last, no long DA pull, no awkward safety. Rapid reload is a snap. The 45 ACP was rated 85% knockdown with a double tap. 38 Super and 9mm are rated 45%, 40 S&W 70%. The 45 ACP has the most to offer with manageable recoil, good sighting plane, good concealability, decent accuracy, and excellent function.

When I retied from LE, my fellow agents chipped in and bought me a new Colt Series 80 Stainless Commander. I still have it and shoot it regularly. I have a bunch of other guns in the safe but the Commander is the one I pick up when I need a self defense gun.

For anyone buying a 1911 type gun, go with a quality piece that uses standard 1911 parts. Use quality ammo. Get some professional instruction and practice a lot. You won't be sorry.

[williamlayton]

good reply and thanx. i'm gonna get one one day.
blessings