Author Topic: Headspace and Breech Thrust  (Read 520 times)

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Offline Bayou Stalker

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Headspace and Breech Thrust
« on: December 16, 2009, 07:13:58 AM »
Someone help me understand something:

Assumptions:  Headspacing is important because it effectively sets the primer depth and if the case moves in the chamber that effects accuracy?  Breech thrust is the case head pushing back against the face of the frame where the firing pin protrudes, and the underlug pushes againsed the hinge pin to keep things in place?

If that is the case, why is it when I fire a revolver that the case heads are not pushed up against the frame, and do not appear to have moved at all, and in many cases are snugged up inside of the cylinder?  I'm missing something somewhere....


Kendall
Kendall

Offline knight0334

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Re: Headspace and Breech Thrust
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 07:23:30 AM »
Someone help me understand something:

Assumptions:  Headspacing is important because it effectively sets the primer depth and if the case moves in the chamber that effects accuracy?  Breech thrust is the case head pushing back against the face of the frame where the firing pin protrudes, and the underlug pushes againsed the hinge pin to keep things in place?

If that is the case, why is it when I fire a revolver that the case heads are not pushed up against the frame, and do not appear to have moved at all, and in many cases are snugged up inside of the cylinder?  I'm missing something somewhere....


Kendall

Some revolver cartridges will push back, some wont.   Handguns typically use a faster burning powder, that sudden spike in pressure with pistol powders will expand the brass against the chamber walls quite tightly.  Since most pistol cartridges are rather low pressure overall compared to rifles, there isn't enough thrust back to make the case slip towards the breech face.   But the big dawg cartridges like the 454, 500, etc - well theres enough overall pressure, and enough surface area at the head of the case, to overcome the friction of the case walls against the chamber walls to push the case back.
RIP ~ Teeny: b.10/27/66 - d.07/03/07

Offline peternap

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Re: Headspace and Breech Thrust
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 08:11:20 AM »
They all push back some. The lower pressure cases...sort of bounce.

You can see it for yourself in reverse. Load a cylinder full of primed cases only with a wax wad in each one.

Fire them all. If the gun hans't locked up, it will be dragging. The primers will have backed out. The bouncing is what keeps them in place.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Headspace and Breech Thrust
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 01:44:13 PM »
Quote from: Bayou Stalker link=topic=192231.msg 1098968364#msg 1098968364 date=1260987238
Someone help me understand something:

Assumptions:  Head Spacing is important because it effectively sets the primer depth and if the case moves in the chamber that effects accuracy?  Breech thrust is the case head pushing back against the face of the frame where the firing pin protrudes, and the under lug pushes against the hinge pin to keep things in place?

If that is the case, why is it when I fire a revolver that the case heads are not pushed up against the frame, and do not appear to have moved at all, and in many cases are snugged up inside of the cylinder?  I'm missing something somewhere....
Kendall

HEAD SPACE is haw a cartridge fits in its chamber. The primer backing out is sometimes a telltale sign of a head space problem, but not always. Straight walled cases react entirely differently than bottle-necked cases. Also anything below a 40-45,000 CUP threshold are entirely different then anything above this.


The brass is very "springie" (tech term.  ::) ) and upon firing becomes tightly pressed to the walls of the chamber. Now the primer, if sufficient pressures exist, isn't held in place as tightly and will be pushed back to the recoil shield or breech face. Then as pressures drop the brass releases, there is still enough pressure to push the case back, re-seating the primer. Now excessive pressures and very lite pressures can entirely change things and give wildly false results.

Primer powdered, wax bullet loads are a good analogy of protruding primers in a revolver. BUT simply drill the flash hole to say 1/8" and the protruding primers disappear!!  GO FIGURE!!!


CW
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Offline 26-t

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Re: Headspace and Breech Thrust
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 05:17:00 PM »
Head space is how the case/cartridge seals the gas in the chamber. Rimed cartridges head space is the seals at the rim flange and the bolt/breach face of the receiver. Head space on a rimless case is the seal from the bolt /breach face to the datum line on the shoulder angel of the case. A belted magnum head spaces on the belt and the bolt /breach face of the receiver. Thrust is the force exerted on the face of the receiver or bolt face and locking lugs of the action.  I hope this will help.  26-t