« previous next »
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: How accurate does it need to be?  (Read 1303 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 44 Man

  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
  • Gender: Male
How accurate does it need to be?
« on: November 19, 2009, 03:09:22 AM »
On another post I mentioned I'm trying to come up with a light weight all around Handi, and someone mentioned the superlight .243.  It is something to consider.  Enough for deer, but lightweight.  My first thought was all the problems we hear of people having accuracy problems from them.  Then I thought it through a little more.  After a little more consideration on the subject, I think many people forget; when hunting it only has to put the first shot where you want it from a cold barrel.  After that first shot or two, it doesn't matter what it does with the rest.  If you are shooting at a praire dog town, you need better, but that is what we have bull barrels for.  I'm talking practical accuracy from a standard or preferably light weight barrel.  I had an old Marlin .35 rem that would put the first two shots were right where you wanted them, but after that, it would start to walk 3" vertically for the next 5 or 6 shots.  Then for some unexplained reason, it would walk them back down to where it started from.  But it didn't matter.  It was still a very good deer gun as I'm more concerned with the first shot going where I want it to.  Yeah, it's nice to show your friends a pretty 3 or 5 shot group on paper, but my priority is a really good 'one shot group' being right where it is supposed to be.  What are your accuracy expectations from a light weight, hunting Handi?  44 Man
Logged
You are never too old to have a happy childhood!

Offline peternap

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 03:29:08 AM »
That's a real good question.

I have a philosophy with everything I shoot. With my bow, I routinely practice at 100 yards. The idea is that if I'm shooting OK at 100, I'm shooting great at 40 and 40 is my self imposed limit for hunting shots.

The same idea holds true for Deer rifles. If I can't hold it on a paper plate at the extreme end of my practice range, I won't use it.

What that extreme limit is, depends on your needs. Here in Va, short shots are the rule. 100 yards are long shots for me just because of the terrain. I practice often at 200 yards and as long as I'm on that paper plate at 200, it's OK to hunt with.

Now that doesn't mean I'm happy with that and I doubt I have any guns that I can't cut that in half at least, that's just the rule I use.
Logged

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 03:31:28 AM »
Quote from: 44 Man on November 19, 2009, 03:09:22 AM
On another post I mentioned I'm trying to come up with a light weight all around Handi, and someone mentioned the superlight .243.  It is something to consider.  Enough for deer, but lightweight.  My first thought was all the problems we hear of people having accuracy problems from them.  Then I thought it through a little more.  After a little more consideration on the subject, I think many people forget; when hunting it only has to put the first shot where you want it from a cold barrel.  After that first shot or two, it doesn't matter what it does with the rest.  If you are shooting at a praire dog town, you need better, but that is what we have bull barrels for.  I'm talking practical accuracy from a standard or preferably light weight barrel.  I had an old Marlin .35 rem that would put the first two shots were right where you wanted them, but after that, it would start to walk 3" vertically for the next 5 or 6 shots.  Then for some unexplained reason, it would walk them back down to where it started from.  But it didn't matter.  It was still a very good deer gun as I'm more concerned with the first shot going where I want it to.  Yeah, it's nice to show your friends a pretty 3 or 5 shot group on paper, but my priority is a really good 'one shot group' being right where it is supposed to be.  What are your accuracy expectations from a light weight, hunting Handi?  44 Man

Same as they are for any rifle I own..light weight..or standard or bull barrel rigs..5 or 10 shots into 1" groups at 100 yards.... with the first shot being the same from a cold barrel..as opposed to a hot barrel...every time..Most light weight's are finicky..but most can be made to shoot good if enough time is invested to do so......Why...I like a consistent accurate rifles..and won't own one that isn't..I've only owned a couple that I couldn't get to shoot good enough for my standards...and I've owned quite a few over the years...I whittled it down to 1 for the past year..but that is changing..I got a 270 Ultra comp coming...and another 338-06 A-Square going to be done...and hopefully before the 1st of the year..will be picking up one of those 24" stainless 45-70's with the thumb hole stock and a 20 Ultra slug barrel..that will get the Hastings re chamber on..and a 30-30 too...All of them I will get to be consistent and accurate...sure I could get by as long as it was consistent with the first shot..but..ya never know when multiple shots will happen...and I despise having to guess where the second/third/or fourth shot will go..butt hey..that's just me...

Mac
Logged
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Default

  • Classified -- Banned
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • A Real Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 766
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 11:25:58 AM »
44,

 I'm with you .. what does the tenth shot matter out of a light contoured, light wt. carry rig when you will likely as not get only one shot, Maaayyybe two.

 I have one of the 243 super lite youths and it has no trouble placing factor (win. fed.) 100gr bullets in 1-1 3/4 inches at 100 (3 shot groups) which is with out a doubt good enough as far as medium game is concerned.

 I took the stock from my 44 mag handi ( full length ) and replaced the youth butt stock , just to try it out .. Talk about a seriously lite rig ;) 5.5 lbs. is what H&R lists them at with synthetic furniture and no glass.


    I think you might be going in the right direction for what you were wanting,

      Default
Logged
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free." ~Ronald Reagan

THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENSLAVE A PEOPLE IS TO DISARM THEM ~ George Mason

Offline eskimo36

  • Trade Count: (156)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
  • Gender: Male
    • Adventure Rider
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2009, 11:37:40 AM »
First shot from a cold barrel within 1" of where the crosshairs are.... that is the only one that really matters.
Logged
"one shot is usually enough"

Offline burntmuch

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (114)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2177
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2009, 12:20:48 PM »
Im with eskimo on this one. for deer hunting. My light weight rig for next year is a 357 max barrel cut to 17 inches , youth synthetic stock & a compact little scope. Wanted to do it this year just ran out of time.
Logged
I dont care what gun Im using as long as Im hunting

Offline canon6

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (119)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1508
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2009, 12:25:03 PM »
Count me in with eskimo and burntmuch.  Doug
Logged
a armed man is his own master

Offline Big Blue

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2009, 12:27:18 PM »
Good topic 44! Reloaders are always cursed to seek smaller groups. To say a load for a rifle that shoots .75" three shot groups at 100 yards needs work is insane on a deer hunting rifle, but just recently I found myself doing just that with a Rem. Model Seven in .260. If I'm honest with myself, at least 9 out of every 10 deer that I've shot have been 50 yards or under. So what was it I really needed? A 5" group at 50 yards? Of course I could never settle for that, but a 3" group at 100 should be all I'd really have needed. Of course a lot depends on the area you hunt. In my case it's mostly heavy brush. The kind of hunting that made the .30-30 and .35 Rem. so popular in the East.
Don   
Logged

Offline manatee1947

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 05:15:08 PM »
Are you a shooter that hunts, or a hunter that shoots? I am more the former, and find myself always fiddling with loads, trying to tweak them, but in actual, practical use, any large game rifle that will stay under 3 moa is sufficient. If I were going to hunt "big game" in the entire lower 48 today, practically any off the rack rifle in 7mm to 358 would be just fine. My 9 year old grandson in his 1st season this year took 2 does on the 1st and 2nd days, with a 357 mag that was getting 1 3/4" groups at 75 yds. On the second one he head shot it, because he saw how much mess there was inside the 1st one. One hole groups are great for the ego, but for the find it, shoot it , eat it school of hunting, minute of Moose is sufficient.
Logged
remember the starfish

Offline Cottonwood

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2780
  • Gender: Male
  • "Capturing the moment, to last a lifetime"
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2009, 01:35:40 AM »
Quote from: eskimo36 on November 19, 2009, 11:37:40 AM
First shot from a cold barrel within 1" of where the crosshairs are.... that is the only one that really matters.

Your spot on with this response!
Logged

Offline Slowhanddd

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (43)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2009, 02:08:08 AM »
Quote
First shot from a cold barrel within 1" of where the crosshairs are.... that is the only one that really matters.

I couldn't agree more.Small groups on paper are great for coffee shop bragging,But I'll take the buck in the truck every time.Slow
Logged
Life is not about how fast you run, or how high you climb, but how well
you bounce

Offline catman50plus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2009, 06:03:05 AM »
44 Man, and eskimo are dead on IMHO, if it is done right, there is no need for a second shot. I am a shooter turned hunter, and even in combat does a barrel get  enough heat, in most cases to cause any problems, and yes, I am talking about a sniper rife. I do like to know what a group will be from zero to five rounds, which is still a cold bore, for most all practical purposes.
Logged

Offline Sourdough

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8150
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2009, 06:59:30 AM »
With my hunting rifles I don't shoot for groups.  I use 4" clay targets, and a hit explodes the target.  That's all I care about. 
beyond 400 yards I use a gallon milk jug,  If I hit the jug that means I will hit the vitals.  It's a lot less frustrating, and works fine for me.  Perfection is putting the animal down, quickly and humanly, not how small my group is.

I also shoot from a cold barrel.  That first shot is the one that has to connect. 
Logged
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline wreckhog

  • Trade Count: (55)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2997
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2009, 07:16:50 AM »
I saw a superlight
.243 last night at Gander Mtn and I want one. I hunting today (actually sitting on a stump right now) with my scoped 30-30 handi with Survivor and the lever action shooters all were surprised at how heavy it was.
Logged

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2009, 10:03:40 AM »
I am with Mac.
I have quite a few rifles non will group three shots
over one inch at 100yrds. If they don't I either sell them or work
on them until they do. Both my two Handies are a lot better than one inch. 3/8" for the 6x47 and a1/2" for the 257 Roberts, but both of these rifles have rebored barrels.

You looking at an extra $300 for a rebore job. Top notch accuracy does not come cheap, most of the time. Wether you need this kind of accuracy is simply a private matter.

I also have three rifles that will shot 5 shots into 1/4" or less at 100yrds.

One particular big bore hunting rifle a 375Win Ruger #3 grouped
3 shots into 1-3/4" at 250 yrds with 225gr Hornady Interlocks.
Logged
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline mechanic

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2009, 03:54:36 PM »
I have one of the superlight 243's.  With my handloads, I can shoot the first three into an inch at 100.  It's a single shot rifle.  The odds are, I won't need the second and third shots.  I sure won't need the fourth and fifth where the group starts to open up.  I never expected a $200.00 rifle to be a bench gun.
Logged
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2009, 05:10:46 AM »
Quote from: mechanic on November 21, 2009, 03:54:36 PM
I have one of the superlight 243's.  With my handloads, I can shoot the first three into an inch at 100.  It's a single shot rifle.  The odds are, I won't need the second and third shots.  I sure won't need the fourth and fifth where the group starts to open up.  I never expected a $200.00 rifle to be a bench gun.

While this is certainly a good veiw point for you..and many others..and is what can be an accepted norm for a superlight 243..it isn't always the case for some of the other rifles and barrel types. The beauty of the Handi is the simplicity of it..You can make it... as what ever you as a individual..may want.

Personal expectations and standards works for that individual..not others..no matter what walk of life they come from...hense the expression " To each his own.."

With that..take look as this anology..If you have a 2 Handi rifles...the first capable of putting each bullet in the same hole..from a hot or cold barrel..or the second..only capable of avarage accuracy..or as some have said.." minute of deer "..and you are on a deer hunt that has costed you a lot of time and money to go on..and you only get 1 shot..and it isn't from the best of rests..with unstable footing..crappy weather conditions..varying winds...Which rifle would you prefer to have in your hands...? One that gives avarage minute of deer accuracy..or the tack driver...? This is a reality for some of us that use these rifles...
Many will say to use a different rifle or pass up a shot under those conditions..but..I ask why? I'll take my Handi's anywhere I hunt..I don't always need multiple shots..but..it isn't always a "perfect World" in which I live in and the conditions I hunt in won't alway be the best...
If you have a tack driver..and are proficient at shooting it..then you don't always have to worry about having ideal conditions..especially if the ranges are on the long side..I say why not make your rifle as accurate as it can be..and not have that worry hanging over you..Sometimes it only takes a o-ring to turn a avarage Handi into a take driver with the right ammo..other times it takes more..For a couple of penny's to have 1 over the other..just makes more sense to me..than using the other...but again...this is just me and how I think..

For those who really don't care..ask yourself..is it you or your rifle that makes it an avarage shooter.....If you have done nothing to the rifle..and you have a good idea on how to shoot these rifles..then you may have a a tack driver in your hands and not even know it for the price of a $.10 o-ring..or a couple dollars of RTV silicon and a few hours of work..If your really not curious..and are perfectly happy with it's performance..I say that's great too...your where you want to be at with your life and guns..so enjoy the heck out of them..For many here..they are where they want to be...for many of us..we are just on a different path..and go by the beat of a different drum..wish us well on our endevours..

Mac
Logged
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27106
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 11:40:39 AM »
I did not take time to read the answers and quite honestly am not going to but will respond to the OP. If you really want to know how effective your hunting rifle is for actual hunting conditions then shoot a five shot group one round per day on five different days preferably under varying weather conditions. Use a field rest like you'll be using when hunting NOT a bench.

That group is the ONLY group that really matters as far as how well your rifle might do in actual hunting conditions.

How well it stacks the second, third or more shots in quick sucession is totally immaterial to real world hunting conditions. Where it places that first shot and how consistently it will place it from field positions means everything.
Logged


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Oldshooter

  • GBO subscriber and supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6426
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 12:00:41 PM »
Quote from: Graybeard on November 22, 2009, 11:40:39 AM
I did not take time to read the answers and quite honestly am not going to but will respond to the OP. If you really want to know how effective your hunting rifle is for actual hunting conditions then shoot a five shot group one round per day on five different days preferably under varying weather conditions. Use a field rest like you'll be using when hunting NOT a bench.

That group is the ONLY group that really matters as far as how well your rifle might do in actual hunting conditions.

How well it stacks the second, third or more shots in quick sucession is totally immaterial to real world hunting conditions. Where it places that first shot and how consistently it will place it from field positions means everything.

 I dont think I have ever heard it put that way, makes sense, I have a couple of closet queens that I'm gonna do that with.
Logged
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline 44 Man

  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 12:17:33 PM »
Amen Graybeard!  Well put!
Logged
You are never too old to have a happy childhood!

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 04:22:12 PM »
Gb
That is not the way a prudent hunter or rifleman sights in his
hunting rifle. Specially when you hunt in flat country where shots up to 300yrds are not out of the ordinary. You want to end up with a gun that more or less shoots a 3 shot group into one hole, at 100yrds and the hole should not be too big.

To take the head off a partridge at 25 yrds should not be a problem.

A rifle so sighted in will put its bullet where the x-hair points.

Amen to that.
Logged
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline tykempster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
  • I enjoy long range shooting and big guns.
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 04:48:53 PM »
I can't help but tinker, I want all of my guns to shoot as good as possible, and if I'm not 100% confident in them I find my shooting is worse.
Logged

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 05:00:23 PM »
Tykemster.
You are so right. If you have to think about where that bullet may go, your are lost. Convidence in your rifle and load is the first step to good shooting.
Logged
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Sourdough

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8150
  • Gender: Male
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 05:51:36 PM »
I agree with Graybeard, like I said earlier, cold barrel shots are the only ones that count
Logged
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline burntmuch

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (114)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2177
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2009, 12:45:33 PM »
After reading GBs post, I did something. I took my model 7 7mm-08 out back. I fired one round. Landed one inch above my bullseye. My POA.  put the gun away, came back in an hour. Fired one more round. Now I cant say one hole , but they were touching. Put the gun away . An hour later put another round right next to the other 2. Ended up with a horizontal string about 3/4 of an inch . Thats good enough for me. If I try to do 3 in a row My 3rd is a flyer an inch & a half off. That pencil thin barrel is worm. Thats all the accuracy I need out of that rifle. I wanted to do this over 3 days but dont have the time. 
Logged
I dont care what gun Im using as long as Im hunting

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: How accurate does it need to be?
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2009, 01:43:21 PM »


Try this..stick your barrel in the freezor for a couple hours..then take it out and shoot it at the smae target..Next..warm it up to about 65-70 degrees..and put another round at the same target..This is what the tempreature swings can be for our deer season here in 1 day..You gotta love the mid-west..

I've done this with mine..even as far as taking a large cooler to the range in the summer with my IR temp gun to check the temps..when working up various loads..and seeing how factory fodder does with the extremes..

Mac
Logged
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...
Pages: [1]   Go Up
« previous next »