Author Topic: How fast can you push paper patching (Read 5869 times)

RangerBob · « **on:** August 09, 2004, 12:12:30 AM »

I have a .458WM that I would like to use to push a 350gr plain base to 2000+fps. I know that I don't need this much velocity for deer hunting, but I want to increase my range.

My question is: how fast can I push this bullet in this gun (long throat, fast twist) and still get good accuracy (<3" at 100yds).

I have been sizing down to .454 and patching back to .461. Bullets are air-cooled wheel weights. I use a home made lube on the patch, and load over the right dose of 4895. So far I can't quite get 3" at 50yds. The gun will group three into 1" and then toss the other two out a couple inches. (The rifle will shoot great with 405 Rem jacketed, so its not the rifle . . . and I have cleaned thoroughly since shooting jacketed).

What do I need to try next? Harder bullets? Different powder? Ideas?

Thanks for any help.

Castaway · « **Reply #1 on:** August 09, 2004, 12:41:00 AM »

Your velocity depends on the alloy. Pure lead will disentegrate at about 2,200 f/s from the spin. Linotype can be pushed to over 2,700 f/s and probably more.

45 2.1 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 09, 2004, 02:09:17 AM »

Your accuracy problem is from the too hard alloy. Try 20:1 and you will get accuracy with no problems from the speed you want to shoot.

RangerBob · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2004, 12:56:37 AM »

. . . I have always thought harder bullets go with higher velocities and that harder bullets go with higher pressure.

I've never heard of using a softer bullet for higher speeds.

If you have the time, could you explain this to me?

I am very new to paper patching and could use any education that you have time to provide.

Thank you.

45 2.1 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2004, 02:06:12 AM »

With paper patched bullets, the patch is a paper jacket. The lead doesn't touch the barrel, or shouldn't. The bullet material has to obturate for the bullet to be accurate. If it doesn't, the bullet will strip, lead and be inaccurate.

Kragman71 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2004, 04:29:43 PM »

Ranger Bob,
You need harder bullets for higher velocity.
I shoot my 30/30 at 2100FPS with a pure lead(BHN5)and get good accuracy with no leading.
To go over 2600FPS,a BHN of 20 would be better.
E H Harrison got good results at 3100FPS in a 300 Magnum with a bullet of BHN 20.
Frank

45 2.1 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2004, 01:50:14 AM »

Kragman71-
He said he was shooting 350 gr bullets @ 2000+ fps in a 45 caliber. You said you shoot pure lead at 2100 fps. He's using wheelweights. Exactly how does he need to shoot harder lead than he is? His group shows that he is on the edge of being to hard to obturate the bullet.

Ranger Bob-
You can try both ways and find out for yourself.

jhalcott · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2004, 04:33:56 PM »

Could it be possible that a change to a FASTER powder will help? Maybe the 4895 is NOT "bumping up"the bullet to fill the bore. Try 3031 ,4064 or 4227 powders.Another little trick that worked for me was Teflon pipe sealant tape.3/4 inch rolls ,2 wraps around the bullet then lubed/sized as normal.
You said "3 shots <3" then fliers" or did you mean 3 shots from a 5 shot group <3" with fliers mixed in? The gun may be walking as it gets hot.Take another gun to play with between shots with the 458,5 minutes or MORE between shots. Hey ,you wont get shots much faster while hunting. jh

jhalcott · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2004, 04:40:05 PM »

pure lead slugs have been pushed to OVER 3000 fps using sabots and other patching devices. They have penetrated half inch steel plates at 100 yards. Lead will crumble at these velocities unless protected by some kind of sabot till it leaves the bore.

Kragman71 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2004, 04:55:08 PM »

452.1,
Sorry for the delay.
Sorry also for causing confusion. I meant that,as a general statement, harder alloy is necessary for higher velocity. BHN#5 is OK for 2000 FPS,but maybe not for 2300 FPS.
Wheelweights vary a lot in hardness,but usually are around BHN#15. It should fill the grooves at 2000 FPS.
But,if it were me,I would add pure lead to the alloy and bring the BHN down to around 7.
'm shooting a 300 Savage now,and using a BHN #7 bullet at 2350 FPS,with great satisfaction.
Frank

RangerBob · « **Reply #10 on:** August 16, 2004, 12:10:15 AM »

I have been patching air-cooled wheel weights.

My next experiments will include some pure lead (almost), paper patched.

I am sizing down to .454 and patching back to .461. This is in a .458WM.
Does this size seem right? I tried sizing down to .452 and patching back to .459 and the "group" looked more like shotgun patterns. .461 was more accurate, but not consistant.

Hopefully, the softer bullets will help accuracy.

In the interest of science, I will also try some water droped wheel weights. I am going to patch some and shoot some unsized and without patching.

Thanks for the help

45 2.1 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 16, 2004, 04:29:42 AM »

I have been patching air-cooled wheel weights.
( Too hard )

My next experiments will include some pure lead (almost), paper patched.
( This is what you want. See the second answer down. )

I am sizing down to .454 and patching back to .461. This is in a .458WM.
Does this size seem right?
( Yes )

I tried sizing down to .452 and patching back to .459 and the "group" looked more like shotgun patterns. .461 was more accurate, but not consistant.
( Larger is better IF it still fits case and throat. )

Hopefully, the softer bullets will help accuracy.
( Yes, it will )

In the interest of science, I will also try some water droped wheel weights. I am going to patch some and shoot some unsized and without patching.
( The patched ones will probably shoot worse than your previous ones did. )

zrifleman · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2004, 07:56:10 PM »

You didn't say what kind of bullet you were expermenting with? It makes a difference if it's a paper patch bullet or a grooved bullet. Bullet weight and rate of twist are important factors. For a 350 gr bullet to perform well at higher velocity a 1-22 twist would be closer to ideal. Traditionally paper patched bullets were undersized --anywhere from .001" over bore diameter to .001" under groove diameter. What are you patching with? Is it 2 wraps of .002 cotton rag paper? Are you using any type of lube? Many years ago I shot a lot of 500 gr PP bullets thru a ruger #1 458 WM. It was very accurate at moderate velocity. Hottest loads were 70 grs of IMR 3031 under the 500 PP. The only time I had a leading problem was with hot loads of RX 7. If you don't have a good PP mold talk to Dave Farmer at Colorado Shooters Supply about a nose pour mold that casts a bullet at about .448".

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2004, 04:59:11 AM »

Ranger Bob,

I can explain the confusion of the hardness of alloys.

The confusion comes from applying regular cast bullet wisdom to paper patching. Paper patchers refer to cast bullets as "grease-grooved". Grease-grooved bullets actually have the lead contact the rifling grooves. Thus, the strength of the lead dictates the velocity. Lead that is too soft will shear off on the lands and cause problems. So for higher velocities grease-groovers tinker with harder lead alloys to solve this.

With the paper patched bullet a different dilema persists. The paper prevents the lead from ever contacting the rifling so soft lead alloys won't shear off. So that problem is solved. BUT paper is vulnerable to hot gas blow-by. Thus if the lead alloy is too hard, the bullet will not obturate to seal the bore. Hot gases will then burn and tear the paper patch to shreads which creates problems.

However, there is a velocity point where even paper-patchers need to harden their alloy. This is because at velocities over 2200 fps the atmospheric friction and the rifling spin can destroy a soft lead bullet. You may recall that aeronautical engineers had to deal with excessive heat from air friction when jets exceeded Mach 2. Well 2200 fps is greater than Mach 2 and the soft lead just can't handle the wind resistance. So when paper patcher want to duplicate .30-06 velocities, 2900fps, they need to use a harder alloy.

Do you see the confusion? With grease-grooved bullets you use soft alloys at lower velocities, and hard alloys for "high" velocities up to 2000 fps. For paper patched bullets 2000 fps is consider "low velocity" and you need to use soft lead.

Another small tip that I found EXTREMELY helpful was to use powder that allows for 100% loading density. I had miserable results with lighter loads, but when I went to a full magnum charge in my .357 groups shrunk instantly. This was coupled with a noticeable increase in the size of the paper shreds expelled from the bore.

RangerBob · « **Reply #14 on:** September 11, 2004, 01:45:54 AM »

I have just gotten my first "pure" lead bullets cast and patched. I will get them loaded today and hope to get to the range tomorrow.

I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks again.

Bob.

sharkhunter · « **Reply #15 on:** May 07, 2005, 02:54:22 AM »

Try Hodgdon Varget powder. I use it in my 45-90 Sharps and it is more accurate than 4895. Of course, that is just my Sharps and maybe the next one will do better with another powder. The soft .452 bullets patched to .459 should do just fine for you. My hunting load is a 500 grain .452 bullet loaded to 1800 fps and it is very accurate. It is very soft lead and it kills like crazy. 55 to 56 grains of Varget should get you really close to this velocity in your .458. Another good powder I have found is AA 2495. It gives about the same pressures and velocity as Varget with a grain or two less powder. Hopefully this will help. Using a .454 dia. bullet, you may be stripping some paper which will hurt the accuracy. Your bore size is probably .450. My Sharps has this bore and .451 and .452 bullets work best.

good shooting,
Dave Mace

Sharps made the west safe for Winchester

JDL in NC · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2006, 05:51:49 AM »

I've been using a bullet also cast from straight WW, cast from a RCBS mold 395 grs. at 0.446" and patched with 0.004" paper to a diameter of approximately 0.460" and then lubing with 50/50 beeswax and LP-10, pushing through a corbin zize die (a lot like a Lee sizer) sizing to 0.458". I've used this bullet in 45/70 Gov. in four different rifles (3 Encores with 26 inch barrels and also a Win Mod. 1886) with excellent results. Believe it or not, I've shot 7 inch groups at 300 yds with the Win 1886 using only tang peep sights!

The load I use with the Encore's give me 2150 fps at just under 40,000 psi measured from a "Pressure Trace" from RSI using H Benchmark topped with Puff-lon. The load used in the Win Mod. 1886 was with H4895 also using Puff-lon filler producing 1850 fps.
This same load produced 28,000 psi in the Encore using a strain gage to measure relative chamber pressures.

Both the above loads used a COL of 2.705" which allowed the patch to enter the leade of the barrel. I think the accuracy with this bullet in due to wrapping the patch approximately 0.200" in front of the front bearing band of the bullet, which is not zized but just happens to be 0.450" which just rides on the lands of the barrel. I tried shorter COL's which leaded the barrel and bullets were all over the target at 100 yds (both Encore barrels and Win barrels). In both cases, I found lead by viewing the muzzle of the barrels.
I think the patch was upset as it jumped to the leade of the barrels. Longer COL's corrected the problem. If you see any leading, accuracy goes south!. All these guns give 1-1/2" groups with this bullet, less that 1 inch most of the time, and occasionally less than 0.600" center to center. Oh, yes, I have occasional flyiers, but they never cause my groups to go over 2 inches at 100 yds.

If you would like, I will give you details as to the loads via e-mail.

JD

JBMauser · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2006, 06:01:42 PM »

Handloaders digest 9 th. ed. has a three page article on pp the 458. the author had good results with IMR Then Dupont 4350 powder. He used cci 250 mag primers. He was getting 1850 fps with good accuracy. He was using a harder alloy. check your library. JB

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2006, 03:22:03 AM »

Quote

He was getting 1850 fps with good accuracy. He was using a harder alloy. check your library. JB

I can't imagine the need for a harder alloy at that velocity - unless he was looking for something that would penetrate. Which I suppose is quite likely given the type of game the .458 was intended for.

Nrut · « **Reply #19 on:** October 25, 2006, 05:05:08 PM »

Quote from: RangerBob on September 11, 2004, 01:45:54 AM

I have just gotten my first "pure" lead bullets cast and patched. I will get them loaded today and hope to get to the range tomorrow.

I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks again.

Bob.

This was posted way back in Sept 2004...what happen to RangerBob...He was going to report back....I hope he is alright!......

docmagnum357 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2008, 12:02:52 PM »

I am not sure if this is the right thread for this question, but here it is anyway. I have a sporterized 8mm Mauser that i would like to try paper patching in. I bought a Lee .311 bullet mold, and a .323 sizing die.I wrapped two wraps of various types of paper around the bullet, and used Liquid Alox for lube on the paper. When the Alox was dry, I sized the assembly .323. I tried using published loads with Green dot, Unique, and Imr 4350. Accuracy was terrible with everything i tried. I wonder if using a case full of a powder that would normally bve considered to "slow" for the 8x57 would help. In all cases, the patch was blown to bits. I did get stabilization, no keyholes, but accuracy was terrible. This rifle is match grade by no means, but it shoots around 3" groups at 100 yards with military ball, or four inches with factory jacketed loads.

Bullets tried weighed 175 grains, was round nose gas check(shot without check) and cast from wheel weights, both quenched and unquenched. Velocity was around 1300-1600, if manuals were correct. What was the problem(s)?

Castaway · « **Reply #21 on:** October 24, 2008, 01:33:51 PM »

I've never had much luck with any powder that didn't fill the case. I'd try a powder that gave at least 90% load density. Not being that familiar with an 8mm but I suspect any of the various 4895's or something on the slower side would be a good place to start.

Lead pot · « **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2008, 04:37:21 PM »

Rangerbob.

Might I ask why you need a faster load to extend your range?
The lowly .45-70 loaded with black powder traveling in the neighborhood of 1150 fps will very accurately hit a target at 1000 yards with no problem.
At least I don't have a problem with mine.
If your .458 WM is Ruger #1 try a 500 gr Gov. RN PP bullet patched to bore, you can use WW alloy if you want, it's softer then 1/20 alloy a at about 1250 fps and you might be pleasantly surprised.
It will drop anything on this side of the pond.

LP

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2008, 05:50:08 AM »

Quote

I tried using published loads with Green dot, Unique, and Imr 4350.

My mistake was trying to be too gentle with the paper patches. I think the lower velocity/pressures that many cast bullet recipes aim for cause too much blowby. My suspicion is that paper patches can tolerate the torque of the rifling but have a low tolerance for blowby.

Is it possible for pistol powders to peak their pressures while the bullet is still in the throat? I wonder if better pp performance would be had with powders that reach peak pressures when the bullet is entirely in the bore. I'm not familiar with this aspect of internal ballistics