Remington Argentine 1879 Rolling Block

[chazgin]

I found an Argentine Rolling Block at a gunshow today and it came home with me. The rifle is in very good to excellent condition, the bore is mirror bright. It appears to be one of the lot that Remington released to civilian sales after the Argentines switched to the 91 Mauser since it doesn't have a crest nor does it say Modelo Argentino on the bottom metal. I'm assuming it is chambered in 43 Spanish and not "reformado" or 43 Mauser, or Egyptian. So what dies should I get for it? The RCBS seem pricey compared to the Lee. Some Lee stuff is OK but not generally impressed with their longevity. How about bullets? Paper patched or straight? Which molds work well? Any help or comments appreciated.

PS. the ladder sight on this rifle is gorgeous!

[Ray Newman]

Since you don't know the calibre, the 1st thing you need to do is make a chamber cast.

The rifle could very well be the .43 Span., or the .44-77 Rem. From what I've read, Remington sold off the Argentine contract overruns on the civilian market. Then again, I've seen photographs of the Argentine model that are .44-77's.

A chamber cast will also tell what thickness rim you'll need. @ one time, Buffalo Arms Company offered brass w/ 2 diffrerent rim thickness for the .43 Span.

The .44-77 Remington, was a very popular cartridge, & its case dimensions are very close to the 11.15X58R (AKA .43 Spanish). Both are rimmed bottle necks. IIRC, the .44-77 Sharps Bn is the same catridge as the .44-77 Remington.

Neither cartridge is economical when buying brass or dies. @ one time, I believe Lee made dies for the 11.15X58R/.43 Spanish. CH-4D also makes dies for both calibres.
www.ch4d.com/

[chazgin]

So I had some .457 swaged lead balls from my BP revolver and I slugged the bore. Here's what I found. Slugging from the muzzle

1) The barrel has a taper towards the muzzle. The slug engaged tightly at the muzzle and dropped clear through after about 8in into the barrel.

2) The barrel has an odd number of lands and grooves (5)

I found this reference on measuring odd lands and grooves

"In the case of a barrel with an odd number of grooves this is measured by driving a soft lead slug into the barrel and then measuring the slug's diameter over a land-to-groove cross section and then subtracting the bore diameter. The next step is to double this figure and add it to the bore diameter to get the groove diameter."

Using this guide the bore measures .444 at the muzzle.

I have ordered some Cerrosafe to make a cast of the chamber and throat, but already I can tell that the throat end is larger. What do you size the bullets to, throat or muzzle ?

[John Traveler]

As I recall (always a dangerous thing!) Lymasn sold a mold for .43 Spanish that dropped bullets measuring a nominal 0.436".

I wouldn't worry too much about the exact groove diameter yet.  Those characteristic Remington Rolling block barrels used wide lands that displaced a lot of bullet metal, plus the old blackpowder cartridge rifles use a soft lead alloy that allows for full bore obturation.  You can also purchase commercially cast .43 Spanish bullets to start with until you determine what is optimum bullet diameter.

I've had good luck fire forming new .348 Winchester brass to .43 Spanish, .43 Egyptian, and .50-70 Swedish.  As previously noted, rim thickness varies quite a bit in these old calibers, and the thinner rimmed cases allow excessive headspace which causes case head separation.  Fireforming is done as follows:

1. neck anneal the case shoulders and mouth in a stovetop flame, holding the case with my fingers.  When it gets too hot to hold, drop it into a can of water.
2.  Dry, prime, and charge with 7-10 grains of shotgun or pistol powder.  I've used Red Dot, Green Dot, WW 231, Bullseye, etc.  START WITH A LOW CHARGE!
Stuff in a wad of 1/4 square of toilet tissue, tamp down, and fill the case with Cream of Wheat cereal.  Use another bit of toilet tissue as a top wad.
3.  Fire form.  Loads are as noisy as a .38 pistol, but can be fired into a box of wadded up corrugated cardboard and old bath towels.
4.  Load with full cases of FFg or equivalent Pyrodex, etc.  Allow for moderate compression of powder with fully seated bullet.

The .348 case is sturdy, with thick base walls and case neck.  They seem to last a lot longer than original ammunition and cases.

[longcaribiner]

I have a very old Ideal 4 cavity mold for the 43 Spanish bullet, a .439   Maybe the guy who made the cherry was drunk.  The grease grooves aren't well defined and the base of the bullet isn't very square.  But the pictures in the old Ideal catelogues look the same.